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Transcript (unedited) of June 12th chat - Broadcast Media and Podcasting with Christopher Penn of Financial Aid Podcast

2006-06-12T13:06:00.000-07:00

14:53:10 Bob Zwick: hello
14:53:21 Christopher Penn: Good afternoon.
14:53:34 sujamthe: Hi Bob
14:53:38 Christopher Penn: Looks like I'm early.
14:54:09 sujamthe: Hi Chris, thanks for joining us, Richard should be here shortly and we'll start at 3pm
14:54:31 Christopher Penn: Sounds great. Looking forward to it. Is this channel available on IRC or just in the web-based client?
14:54:55 Richard Seltzer: His, Christopher and Bob and Su.
14:55:08 Richard Seltzer: We'll be getting started in about 5 minutes.
14:55:12 Christopher Penn: Good afternoon.
14:55:47 sujamthe: only web based, no IRC
15:00:11 Richard Seltzer: It's time to start. Christopher can you please introduce yourself and let us know your interest in and involvement with podcasts and broadcasts?
15:00:31 Christopher Penn: Certainly. My name is Christopher Penn, and I'm the Chief Technology Officer of the Student Loan Network.
15:00:36 Richard Seltzer: Bob -- long time no "see". Please introduce yourself. And have you been involved in podcast kinds of things lately?
15:00:41 Christopher Penn: I am also the host of the daily Financial Aid Podcast.
15:01:15 Christopher Penn: I've been involved with podcasting since Apirl 2005 when my show first went online. Today was episode 277.
15:01:40 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- I understand that Sudha met you through an online event and that you recorded and "podcast" a speech of hers. What is your involvement in podcasting? What's the relationship of that to student loans?
15:02:01 sujamthe: I am Sudha Jamthe, I met Chris at a live event
15:02:05 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Bryan, we're just starting. Please introduce yourself and let us know your involvement in podcasting.
15:02:19 Bob Zwick: Good to be back Richard. Hi everyone. I'm a software developer and web consultant. Set up blogs & podcasts for people, just wrote a simple, simple podcast program.
15:02:21 Christopher Penn: Well, as the host and producer of the Financial Aid Podcast, I create podcasts every day.
15:02:32 sujamthe: I saw Chris in action at BarCamp Boston as he went aout recording the different talks.
15:02:34 Bryan Person: Thanks, Richard. I'm Bryan Person, and I started a podcast late last month called "New Comm Road"
15:02:43 Bryan Person: It's all about new media and online communications.
15:02:48 Richard Seltzer: Yes, and Su, what is your interest in podcasting? Have you been invovled in those kinds of online events in the past?
15:02:58 sujamthe: He recorded my talk about Technology Commercialization, but when I heard the podcast, I was blown away.
15:03:04 Richard Seltzer: Bryan -- sounds interesting. What's the URL?
15:03:05 Christopher Penn: As for the relationship between podcasting and student loans, consider this: the majority of students own iPods and listen to them.
15:03:05 Bryan Person: And coincidentally, I also know Christopher Penn.
15:03:12 Bryan Person: http://www.NewCommRoad.com
15:03:29 Christopher Penn: They're my target audience for my show and my company, so I create a show centered around helping them afford college.
15:03:33 Bryan Person: And I also heard Sudha's presentation at BarCamp.
15:03:48 Richard Seltzer: Christopher and others -- maybe we should start with some definitions. I'm used to the old term "Webcast" Is podcast just a new name for that old kind of online event?
15:03:54 Christopher Penn: No.
15:04:04 Christopher Penn: Podcasting is the reliable, regular delivery of audio and video content.
15:04:11 Christopher Penn: Asynchronously.
15:04:28 sujamthe: I love Internet technology in all forms and been involved in online chats and communities since 96. I've listened to podcasts purely for the content and want to learn about the trend and its impact on broadcast media and content publishing on the web.
15:04:37 Christopher Penn: Webcasts and streams are connection-based - meaning you have to be tuned in in order to receive the content.
15:04:44 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- so you mean there is no difference between a webcast and a podcast? And there is no relationsihp betwee iPod and podcast?
15:05:10 Christopher Penn: Podcasts are kind of like TiVo for A/V content - the content is time-shifted, so you download it whenever and listen or watch at your convenience.
15:05:19 sujamthe: Chris, be warned Richard loves to break down jargons :-)
15:05:21 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- 10 years ago, the term webcast was used for both live and recorded version of a video online event.
15:06:00 Bryan Person: You don't need an ipod for a podcast
15:06:17 Bob Zwick: webcast now-a-days means a recorded web presentation
15:06:21 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- Also, I'm confused a bit becasue when I accessed that podcast of Sudha, I just heard recorded voice. I didn't see any video. Is that the way ti was set up or do I maybe have the wrong settings or wrong software to see it?
15:06:25 Bryan Person: You can even listen on your computer
15:06:33 Christopher Penn: Very true, but the focus back then was on tuning in "live" - whereas podcasting's appeal is that it's content on demand.
15:06:35 sujamthe: Chris, I am one of those people who hears podcasts on the web and thought of it as oh!Mp3 files, what made this an industry?
15:06:50 Christopher Penn: Richard - no, there are two types of podcasts - audio and video.
15:07:00 Christopher Penn: Sudha's talk is an audio podcast only.
15:07:04 Richard Seltzer: I'm also confused becase recorded audio to me means Internet radio. Does podcast without video differ at all from Internet radio?
15:07:10 Christopher Penn: What made podcasting an industry? Three factors.
15:07:31 Christopher Penn: 1. Broad availability of high speed internet connections.
15:07:40 Christopher Penn: 2. Broad availability and use of portable MP3 players.
15:07:59 Christopher Penn: 3. Overcommercialization of mainstream broadcasting, reducing choice on the regular airwaves.
15:08:00 Richard Seltzer: When did podcasting become an industry? Sorry, I'm new to this. Internet radio and webccasting is all familiar stuff. But I still don't have any idea what is new and different about podcasting. Please help.
15:08:28 Christopher Penn: Podcasting became an industry the moment someone figured out that you could make money at it.
15:08:36 Christopher Penn: Figure summer of 2005.
15:08:42 Richard Seltzer: Those are three good points, making webcasting and Internet radio much more viable now than 10 years ago. But what is a podcast?
15:08:53 Christopher Penn: That's when Adam Curry founded Podshow, Inc., the first company to receive venture capital for podcasting.
15:09:05 Richard Seltzer: How are people making money from podcasts? What are the main business models?
15:09:17 Christopher Penn: What is a podcast? Three things:
15:09:27 Christopher Penn: 1. Regular content delivery.
15:09:28 sujamthe: Richard, if you hear Chris's Financial Aid Podcasts, it sounds like Internet Radio
15:09:33 Christopher Penn: 2. Content that is subscribed to - a push model, rather than a pull.
15:09:56 Richard Seltzer: Bob -- what's your take on this? Is podcast just new venture-captial friendly lingo for what we've had for a long time? If not, what's different?
15:10:02 Christopher Penn: 3. Content that is time shifted - it's created and put out there, and you download or listen to it when you want.
15:10:15 Christopher Penn: People are making money from podcasting via three models as well.
15:10:30 Christopher Penn: 1. Advertiser sponsored content. Podshow, Inc. does this with campaigns like GoDaddy and Earthlink.
15:10:34 Richard Seltzer: I'm still looking for what's different. Everything you've listed applies just as well to webcasts and Internet radio.
15:10:55 Christopher Penn: 2. Advertising medium. The Student Loan Network does this with my show, the Financial Aid Podcast at http://www.FinancialAidPodcast.com
15:11:14 Christopher Penn: 3. Pay per listen. A very few shows do this, such as Ricky Gervais' comedy show.
15:11:26 Richard Seltzer: Many people tried advertising based Internet video/audio in the past. Perhaps what's different now is the size of the audience, making that business model more viable. What what is a podcast?
15:11:28 sujamthe: Chris, more podcast companies are getting funded, podtech is new. Is it all only ad revenues?
15:11:41 Bob Zwick: Syndication
15:11:56 sujamthe: How much is the critical mass who have adapted podcasts? Does anyone know of recent stats?
15:12:18 Christopher Penn: Syndication and subscribable content. With Webcasts and Internet radio, you have to go out and retrieve audio or video. With podcasting, once you subscribe, it comes to you.
15:12:19 Richard Seltzer: Bob -- please explain. I'm a little bit familiar with RSS as a way of spreading blogs. How does it relate to podcasts?
15:12:42 Christopher Penn: People are using all three revenue models I've described.
15:12:53 sujamthe: Thanks Bob, its a new form of content syndication!
15:13:10 Richard Seltzer: With blogs RSS makes "syndication" possible, in the sense of sites making it easy to get to lots of blogs. But not syndication in the print sense with the producer of the content getting money.
15:13:35 Christopher Penn: As for critical mass - statistics vary wildly and are very difficult to determine. Some estimate between 100,000 and 500,000 listeners. Others say 6 - 10 million. Depends on who funded the study.
15:13:36 Richard Seltzer: Is there a syndication-based revenue model ofr podcasts?
15:13:37 sujamthe: Do you know any sites which make subscription money off podcasts? I'd pay for really good content, I want to hear daily like NPR news
15:13:40 Bob Zwick: if you have a Internet Radio show you have an audience that you create. If you syndicate it the information is delivered to web agencies looking for content of your type
15:14:14 Christopher Penn: Sudha - yes. Ricky Gervais sells his podcast. 7.95, I believe, for 4 episodes.
15:14:22 Richard Seltzer: And is RSS the difference between podcasts and webcasts/Internet radio? in other words, an automated way of making the content available to a borad audience that doesn't know the URL?
15:14:50 Christopher Penn: RSS is one of the differences, yes.
15:15:05 Christopher Penn: The other difference is that a lot of the content is generated specifically for the iPod.
15:15:05 Christopher Penn: The other difference is that a lot of the content is generated specifically for the iPod.
15:15:06 sujamthe: Chris, can you tell us about other players/technologis that make this syndication seamless
15:15:35 sujamthe: Bob, do you have any favorite podcasts you listen to daily?
15:15:35 Richard Seltzer: Chris -- why the iPod?
15:15:35 sujamthe: Bob, do you have any favorite podcasts you listen to daily?
15:15:39 Christopher Penn: Oh, it's not seamless, not by a long shot. The only combination that has proven to work well so far is the integration of podcasting, iTunes, and the iPod.
15:16:10 sujamthe: Richard, I have mp3 capabilities on my cell phone, but I guess ipod brought ease of use into it
15:16:17 Christopher Penn: The iPod is the most popular media player on the market. Apple has sold 42 million of them.
15:16:21 Richard Seltzer: I'm gradually getting the notion that the basic technology and the basic experience is the same with podcasting and webcasting/Internet radio.
15:17:01 Richard Seltzer: The difference seems to be the ways of reaching the audience (RSS syndication and iPod and other portable MP3 devices -- which means the size of the audience is much larger.
15:17:07 sujamthe: Chris, I gave all credit to the ipod before I saw you in action. What change did you see to get into this?
15:17:08 Christopher Penn: Rather than reinvent the wheel, I recommend you read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting
15:17:52 Christopher Penn: Sudha: actually, what got me into it was purchasing an iPod in April of last year.
15:17:56 Richard Seltzer: I did a series of Webcasts for Digital Equipment back in 1995-1996. Back then the typically audience might have been a few dozen people live. Then maybe you might have gotten a few hundred more with the recorded version.
15:18:02 Bob Zwick: I listen to EdTech Talk regularly
15:18:14 Christopher Penn: I heard some of the more popular podcasts, like the Daily Source Code, Dawn and Drew, etc., and figured I could do my own.
15:18:45 Christopher Penn: Richard: by comparison, my show averages 2,300 listeners daily, with a peak listenership (show with most number of downloads) at 15,239.
15:18:51 sujamthe: Thanks Chris. I am interested in hearing your experience how you became a podcaster and what cool for you.
15:19:19 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- what is your business model for doing podcasts? content like Sudha's speech doesn't seem related to student loans. Do you just look for content that people interested in loans might find interesting to hear?
15:19:44 sujamthe: Chris, I thought people who did podcasts had their own content to produce till I went to BarCamp.
15:20:12 Christopher Penn: Sudha's presentation was actually an anomaly. It doesn't relate to my regular show at all, but I recorded it as a courtesy to the BarCamp organizers to capture the knowledge.
15:20:42 Christopher Penn: Our business model is pretty straightforward. I provide daily information to students about financial aid, student loans, scholarships, etc. and in doing so, recommend and advocate for my company's student loan products.
15:20:47 Richard Seltzer: I can imagine that it would be far easier to record and podcast speeches that are being delivered at face-to-face events than to create content specifically for podcasting. Do you do both?
15:20:52 sujamthe: I honestly thought financial aid podcast was only for students looking for fin aid. It seems you did programming, radio style when you saw interesting content and created new shows.
15:21:10 Christopher Penn: The majority of my content is self-generated, every day at 7 AM.
15:21:40 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- Do you record that daily content yourself? Or what is your source?
15:21:58 Richard Seltzer: And when you record, do you use some special portable gadget to do so?
15:22:06 Christopher Penn: And no, Sudha, the Financial Aid Podcast isn't limited just to students. It's created for anyone who wants personal finance information and insights into what's happening in higher education finance.
15:22:11 Bryan Person: It's not just for students.
15:22:24 sujamthe: Richard, DCI recorded my talk in Internet world in 96 and its same recording, but it doesn't compare to Chris's podcast. Honestly I am glad that old content is not so easy to access as that material will seem s outdated today, but Chris's podcasts are
15:22:26 Christopher Penn: Richard: yes. I recommend you install iTunes and visit www.FinancialAidPodcast.com/subscribe to listen to my show.
15:22:37 sujamthe: Chris's podcasts are part of the web archives already
15:22:48 Bryan Person: Chris gives tips on how to better use your money, how to job hunt, etc.
15:23:05 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- why would I need/want iTunes? Can't I listen otherwise?????
15:23:15 Bryan Person: And if you're looking to become a podcaster, it's a great show to listen to.
15:23:24 Christopher Penn: You certainly can. You can listen in your browser by visiting http://www.FinancialAidPodcast.com
15:23:24 Richard Seltzer: What is the relationship between iTunes and podcasting?
15:23:35 Christopher Penn: The built in audio player will automatically start today's show.
15:23:44 Bob Zwick: Richard- iTunes is an aggregator
15:23:53 Christopher Penn: iTunes is the best, in my opinion, software for downloading and listening to podcasts.
15:24:00 sujamthe: Chris, interesting! So if I want to do a Phd and want to know my funding options, I can goto your podcast? How can I know if you've covered this topic before?
15:24:33 Christopher Penn: Sudha - yes, exactly. The podcast is accompanied by show notes, essentially a daily blog that contains links and information discussed in each day's show.
15:24:34 sujamthe: Richard, I've trid i-Tunes, without an ipod. Its good ease of use.
15:24:50 Christopher Penn: You can find the show notes at http://www.FinancialAidPodcast.com/blog
15:25:03 Richard Seltzer: That's strange and interesting. I thought of iTunes as being just an aggregator for music for download to an iPod. Your saying that someone who doesn't have an iPod might want to install that software for listening to podcasts???
15:25:11 Christopher Penn: Correct.
15:25:21 sujamthe: Bob, do you have the URL for the podcasts you listed, otherwise, u can email Richard later.
15:25:43 sujamthe: Smart! the show notes are the searchable version text.
15:25:47 Bob Zwick: I'll email
15:25:59 Christopher Penn: Correct, Sudha. Show notes are indexed and part of the content.
15:26:32 sujamthe: I have itunes on my PC, no ipod, a cell phone with mp3 capability, though I mostly listen on the PC.
15:26:36 Richard Seltzer: Interesting the way technology morphs. Apple becomes a music company. HP a photo company. Now a music service helps implement an alternative to boradcasting...
15:27:16 Christopher Penn: The other thing that has changed since you did your Internet broadcast work, Richard,i s that the technology is broadly available to podcast.
15:27:23 sujamthe: Is video podcasting as easy?
15:27:39 Christopher Penn: Every purchaser of a Macintosh computer gets a copy of Garageband, with which they can easily make podcasts.
15:27:39 Richard Seltzer: So is iTunes acting as an RSS syndicator of podcasts? Is it also acting as a sort of podcast TV guide?
15:27:45 Bob Zwick: a mobil society demands content on demand. technology provides it.
15:27:59 Christopher Penn: PC users can download a free copy of Audacity and with nothing more than a $5 radio shack microphone, begin their own show.
15:28:13 Christopher Penn: Richard: yes. iTunes acts as both aggregator and content guide.
15:28:30 Richard Seltzer: Where is Audacity availbable?
15:28:33 Christopher Penn: Sudha: yes and no. With the right equipment, you can easily do a low budget video podcast, but the production time is longer.
15:28:48 Christopher Penn: Audacity is available at http://audacity.sourceforge.net
15:29:00 Richard Seltzer: If iTunes acts as a content guide, what does one have to do to get included in their listings?
15:29:13 sujamthe: Chris, where do you see podcast industry going? Is it small guys as it started? Or there any big funded players? Why do they need funding? for marketing?
15:29:29 Christopher Penn: Richard: you add your RSS feed to their directory through a simple form.
15:29:33 Richard Seltzer: And is there some simple way to convert RealAudio files to the right format for podcasting? (And is that format MP3?)
15:29:36 Bob Zwick: I use Skype and Pamela for interview recordings
15:29:56 Christopher Penn: Sudha: podcasting as an industry is still in its infancy, though some people are already managing to make a nice living at it.
15:30:10 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- How does your audio recording become an RSS feed? Is that what happens with something like Audacity?
15:30:24 Christopher Penn: RocketBoom, for example, the daily video podcast, is making approximately $85,000 per week in revenues.
15:30:34 Richard Seltzer: or does the RSS feed result from how you set your content up on a Web server?
15:31:11 Christopher Penn: Richard, a great outline of the whole process can be found here: http://www.apple.com/support/garageband/podcasts/
15:31:15 Richard Seltzer: Is Rocketboom generating that revenue from advertising? If so what's the size/order of magnitude of their audience?
15:31:42 Christopher Penn: Rocketboom generates their revenues from advertising. They currently have a reach of 300,000 viewers daily.
15:31:43 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- thanks for the pointers/URLs. Obviously, I have a lot to learn.
15:31:43 Bob Zwick: RSS is made by an XML page which the link to is sent to podcasting search engines(agregators).
15:32:30 Christopher Penn: I also recommend http://www.Podcast411.com as well.
15:33:21 Christopher Penn: as for where the i ndustry is going, the three models I described earliler will remain constant fo rthe near future.
15:33:23 sujamthe: Rocketboom with its its 3 min videos makes $85K per week! No wonder theres funding for podcast companies.
15:33:21 Christopher Penn: as for where the i ndustry is going, the three models I described earliler will remain constant fo rthe near future.
15:33:23 sujamthe: Rocketboom with its its 3 min videos makes $85K per week! No wonder theres funding for podcast companies.
15:33:43 Christopher Penn: Ad-sponsored podcasts and podcast networks like Podshow, PodTech.net, TPN, etc. will comprise a good amount of the money in podcasting.
15:33:59 Christopher Penn: Corporate underwriting, like my show, will form another segment.
15:34:23 Christopher Penn: And then for a very small, truly niche section of the market, paidcasts will do all right, but they must offer unique content you can't get anywhere else.
15:34:44 sujamthe: I am amazed at the grassroots creativity. Is podcast offering a new media company with new content?
15:35:42 Christopher Penn: Podcasting is the antithesis of a media company. There's no control, no authority, no central source from which content is managed. Everyone just does what they want to do, and the people who do it better than others become more popular.
15:36:01 sujamthe: Richard, Podtech is where Scoble went to (the MS blogger who wrote to us about difference of blogs and web in one of our early session)
15:36:15 Richard Seltzer: I must admit I'm mainly a text person. I use audio/video when absolutely necessary (because I have to participate in a meeting or even), but otherwise I avoid it. A word is worth a thousand pictures...
15:36:42 Christopher Penn: Except when you're driving, Richard. A good number of podcasts are listened to on commutes and "down time".
15:37:13 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- I like the anarchy aspect. But what defines "popular"?
15:37:39 Christopher Penn: Ultimately, if you're pursuing ad sponsorship, popular is the number of subscribers you have.
15:37:42 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- I work at home, so no commuting, and basically no down time.
15:38:08 Christopher Penn: Richard: do you ever listen to music in the background?
15:38:18 Richard Seltzer: "Subscribers." Does that mean you have to sign up to view/hear? Does it also mean you have to pay?
15:38:31 Bob Zwick: Richard - it's about your audience, not you.
15:39:00 Richard Seltzer: With text-style Web sites, insisting on users "subscribing" basically kills your audience. Why would podcasting be different in that regard?
15:39:07 Christopher Penn: Richard: no, and no. You can, just by going to http://www.FinancialAidPodcast.com listen to the show. But that requires you going there. If you subscribe - meaning you add my show to your iTunes, you'll get new episodes delivered when I make them.
15:39:18 Christopher Penn: Much in the same way people subscribe to blogs with RSS readers.
15:39:34 Christopher Penn: Do you have to pay? Not for my show, nor for 99.9% of other podcasts.
15:39:41 Richard Seltzer: Bob -- True, all too true. But it helps if you can emphatize with your audience, facing the same challenges as they are...
15:40:23 sujamthe: Chris, to you rpoint about podcasts and anachy, not media company -
15:40:27 Richard Seltzer: With blogs, you can simply go straight tot he URL. There's no need to use RSS aggregators. Is that true with podcasts as well?
15:40:33 Bob Zwick: Richard- as a profesional speaker I would think that podcasting would be a shoe-in for you.
15:40:40 Christopher Penn: Richard: correct. no need if you don't want to use one.
15:40:42 Bryan Person: yes
15:40:52 Bryan Person: You can just download the mp3 file directly.
15:41:00 sujamthe: How are media companies responding? Also, whats the funding going towards in a competitor can do without funding?
15:41:00 sujamthe: How are media companies responding? Also, whats the funding going towards in a competitor can do without funding?
15:41:10 Bryan Person: ... from the podcast's website.
15:41:25 Christopher Penn: Richard, I would suggest this. What are you doing Wednesday night, say around 7 PM? If you can, make it out to John Harvards in Framingham and attend the New England Podcasters monthly meetup.
15:41:26 Richard Seltzer: That probably means that anyone could set up a podcast favorites page -- becoming a mini, focused podcast guide.
15:41:38 Bryan Person: Yes, you could do that.
15:41:51 Christopher Penn: Go to the meetup, and speak with many of the New England Podcasters who create some of the most popular shows online.
15:42:19 Christopher Penn: Sudha: broadcast and traditional media companies are responding by taking their existing content and republishing it online.
15:42:19 Bryan Person: Yes, those of you in the Boston area should join us this Wednesday evening for our monthly meetup
15:42:29 Richard Seltzer: Thanks for the invite/pointer. I'll see if I can free up the time.
15:42:47 Bryan Person: NPR is a perfect example of a media organization that is repurposing its content into podcasts.
15:42:49 Bryan Person: Same with ESPN
15:42:50 Christopher Penn: You can find out more information at http://www.NewEnglandPodcasting.com
15:43:18 Bryan Person: Though NPR also creates some podcast-only content: http://www.npr.org/rss/pod/alt-npr.html
15:44:01 Richard Seltzer: I used to do a weekly segment on a radio program in Lowell, both broadcast and delivered by Internet radio. But the guys who were doing the show were never able to put together a viable business model. The show closed a couple years ago. Sounds like th
15:44:55 Richard Seltzer: Sounds like the environment would be more friendly today. (I'll have to point Dave Sciuto and Bill Dubie in this direction....)
15:45:00 Bryan Person: The great thing from a podcasters' point of view is that this can be done very cheaply.
15:45:17 Bryan Person: Even a business can take a stab at it without having to invest any cash.
15:45:20 Christopher Penn: Yes - it sounds like your old show narrowly missed the boat.
15:45:21 Richard Seltzer: Bob - are you doing podcasts now? perhaps with a focus on distance education?
15:45:54 Richard Seltzer: What about repurposing our RealAudio files? Is there a simple conversion tool?
15:46:07 Bob Zwick: not focusing on education, but some educational podcsts yes.
15:46:08 Bryan Person: Podcasts can be a tremendously helpful tool for education.
15:46:32 Christopher Penn: Richard: you certainly could do that. Google will likely list plenty of audio conversion utilities.
15:46:37 Bryan Person: Some professors are using them to supplement lectures; others are doing away with the face-to-face lectures altogether.
15:46:40 Richard Seltzer: By the way, do you podcast the podcasters' meeting?
15:47:06 Christopher Penn: Richard: ironically, not always. We had segments of it in my show a couple of months ago.
15:47:22 Bryan Person: Richard, if you have an mp3 file through RealAudio, you can turn that into a podcast quite easily.
15:47:22 Bryan Person: Richard, if you have an mp3 file through RealAudio, you can turn that into a podcast quite easily.
15:47:52 Richard Seltzer: Bryan -- There are many instances of the use of "online meeting" applications for distance education. What would be different about doing the same kind of thing with a podcast?
15:48:21 Christopher Penn: Richard: here's the April meeting excerpts show notes.
15:48:25 Christopher Penn: http://www.financialaidpodcast.com/blog/2006/04/show-notes-april-14-2006.html
15:48:48 Bryan Person: Richard, a big advantage of a podcast is that you can subscribe to it.
15:49:06 Bryan Person: ANd remember, "subscribing" doesn't mean you have to pay.
15:49:25 Richard Seltzer: I'm presuming that a podcast is recorded (typically) at a single site, with a single microphone; whereas meeting software sometimes allows the integration of PowerPoint and multiple video and/or audio streams. Is that correct?
15:49:38 Bryan Person: You could add lecture RSS feed to your subscription list, and then listen to it at the time that's right for you.
15:49:55 Bob Zwick: If I like your podcast I'll add it to myYaHoo and see a list of all your broadcasts as they become available.
15:50:06 Bryan Person: That's not exactly correct, Richard.
15:50:22 Christopher Penn: Richard: typically, yes, though you could certainly aggregate content together. Boston University recently hosted Podcast Academy and has copies of the various presentations, including speakers and slides, available.
15:50:28 Richard Seltzer: Bryan -- when you "subscribe" to a podcast, what does that mean? is that just like with a blog aggregator, you go to an aggregator site and click to experience the podcast? or is a file delivered to you in some other way?
15:50:56 Bob Zwick: Richard we record confernce calls with Skype and a panel of experts.
15:51:22 Bryan Person: There is also something out there now called Skypecast, which is what Bob may be using.
15:52:03 Christopher Penn: Richard: I would recommend, as we are drawing to a close here, that the best thing you can do is go out and start your own podcast.
15:52:07 Richard Seltzer: Bob -- so in your case, you use meeting software for the live online event, and then distribute the recording as a podcast? is that right?
15:52:17 Bob Zwick: Skypecast is a live stream which can be recorded and podcasted.
15:52:19 Christopher Penn: There's no better way to learn it than to do it, and chances are you own everything you need to make one.
15:52:23 Bryan Person: Richard, subscribing means that you're adding a podcast's unique XML "feed" into your podcatcher, or aggregator.
15:52:32 Richard Seltzer: Christopher -- I'd like to give it a try.
15:52:39 Bob Zwick: Richard - correct
15:52:55 Bryan Person: iTunes is an example of a podcatcher.
15:53:02 Christopher Penn: Start with the aforementioned Wikipedia and Apple.com articles, and google for "how to podcast".
15:53:08 Bryan Person: And you can set iTunes to update on its own.
15:53:46 Christopher Penn: Also be sure to listen to lots of podcasts, too. There are some terrific ones right here in New England.
15:53:55 Richard Seltzer: More good pointers. Thanks. Now I need a time-expansion gadget so I'll be able to learn all I need to learn and experiment with these new oppportunities... Maybe google can help me find that too...
15:54:05 Christopher Penn: Some examples: Bryan's show at http://www.newcommroad.com - mine at http://www.FinancialAidPodcast.com
15:54:10 Bryan Person: Richard, if you have experience adding a blog's RSS feed to your aggregator, then "subscribing" to a podcast is easy!
15:54:20 Christopher Penn: CC Chapman at http://www.accidenthash.com and http://www.managingthegray.com
15:54:33 Bob Zwick: If you want to be podcsting in 10 minutes and have FTP to your site you can try my free software.
15:54:38 Bob Zwick: http://talkingcommunities.com/index.php/tc/talking_communities_gives_a_voice_to_all_with_a_no_cost_podcast_tool/
15:54:42 Christopher Penn: Mrs. B's Patriot World at http://www.PatriotWorld.com and Steve Runner at http://www.SteveRunner.com
15:54:48 Richard Seltzer: Are there any content aggregators who handle both blogs and podcasts?
15:55:07 Bryan Person: Richard, if you are able to come to one of our New England Podcasting meetups, there will be no shortage of people willing to give you a hand.
15:55:08 Bob Zwick: I use Yahoo
15:55:17 Christopher Penn: The M Show at http://www.TheMShow.com and Sales Roundup at http://www.SalesRoundup.com
15:55:26 Christopher Penn: lots of great shows to try out.
15:55:34 Richard Seltzer: Bob -- thanks. you always seem to have a user-friendly way to get involved in the latest tech.
15:56:06 Bob Zwick: This was made for blind people so you know it is easy to use
15:56:10 Christopher Penn: And on that note, folks, I need to get going. It's been a pleasure.
15:56:33 Richard Seltzer: All -- we're nearing the end of the hour. Thanks to all for the great info. Please post your email addresses before you leave so we can stay in touch.
15:56:33 Bob Zwick: nice to meet you Chris
15:56:56 Richard Seltzer: Sudha -- Thanks for coming up with another great topic and great "speaker".
15:56:58 Christopher Penn: You can reach me at http://www.FinancialAidPodcast.com - see you in the podosphere!
15:57:03 Bryan Person: bryan@bryper.com
15:57:15 Richard Seltzer: I'm at seltzer@samizedat.com http;//www.samizdat.com
15:57:26 Bob Zwick: bobzwick@talkingcommunities.com
15:58:06 Bryan Person: Thanks again, everyone
15:59:02 sujamthe: Thanks everyone, bye for now

Transcript (unedited) of June 2nd chat - Ecommerce and Web 2.0 with Venkat Kolluri of Chitika

2006-06-12T11:39:00.000-07:00

19:37:34 Richard Seltzer: We'll be starting in about 20 minutes, at 3 PM Eastern
Time.
19:38:30 sujamthe: joined
19:38:48 sujamthe: Hi, richard
19:39:47 Richard Seltzer: Hi, su.
19:59:28 Venkat: changed name 160.79.123.44
19:59:46 Venkat: Hi
19:59:59 Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Venkat. Glad you could make it.
20:00:26 Venkat: Great to be here !!
20:00:34 Richard Seltzer: It's 3 PM (here in Boston) so we might as well get
started. Venkat, please introduce youself.
20:01:32 Venkat: I am Venkat Kolluri, CEO and Co Founder of Chitika, an online
impulse merchandising company
20:01:35 Richard Seltzer: We're trying to understand new directiosn in business
on the Web. Sometimes what's new is evident. Sometimes not.
20:02:00 Richard Seltzer: From taking a quick look at Chikita.com I'm guessing
that what's new there is hidden.
20:02:17 Richard Seltzer: On the surface, Chikita looks like an old-style Web
portal.
20:02:38 sujamthe: Hi Everybody
20:02:44 Richard Seltzer: What goes on the behind the scenes that's different
from what we would have been back in the 90s? What can you do now that you
couldn't then?
20:02:59 Richard Seltzer: Hi, Su.
20:03:10 Richard Seltzer: Su, please dive in.
20:03:49 Richard Seltzer: Would you classify Chitkita as a "Web 2" style
business? if so, why? What's the most interesting aspect of your business?
20:04:00 sujamthe: Thanks Richards. I am also curious to find out what Chitika
does and see if Venkat can help us understand how ecommerce has changed in
recent times
20:04:17 Venkat: Richard, at Chitika we are bringing to the world of online
merchandising all the secrets that worked well for online advertising
20:04:17 Richard Seltzer: Is there any community-related activity that goes on
in the background?
20:04:28 Richard Seltzer: And what do you mean by "merchandising"?
20:04:31 Venkat: Hi Su
20:04:58 Richard Seltzer: I never knew that anything worked well for online
advertising. What did?
20:05:39 Richard Seltzer: Consider me a "devil's advocate". I'll be poking
around a bit, trying to understand what's new and interesting.
20:05:50 Venkat: Richard, although advertising and merchandising can both be
broadly grouped into the same bucket, advertisiign focuses more on the "branding
aspects" where as mmerchandising is more focused on the sales
20:06:46 Richard Seltzer: I'm lost. Can you give an example of online
merchandising? I dno't see anything for sale directly by Chikita at the Chikita
site. Is that accurate?
20:07:05 Venkat: Both parties jumped on board the Web" band wagon ..in the 90's,
and took a "batch and blast" approach to see if that would work online
20:07:09 Richard Seltzer: Do you simply provide a venue and tools for other
companies to sell their goods and services?
20:07:20 Richard Seltzer: If so, what's new about how you do it?
20:07:35 sujamthe: Hi Venkat, I was remembering you as I heard about upromise
sale y'day. First let me hear about chitika
20:08:23 Richard Seltzer: FYI -- the links at the bottom of the chikita home
page for "About Us" etc. don't work with my browser (IE 6.0)
20:08:29 Venkat: The "batch and blast" approach bombed
20:08:51 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- what is "batch and blast"? And what do you
do that's different?
20:09:16 Richard Seltzer: Also, (if you can clone yourself and type twice as
fast :-) I have a couple questions about upromise.
20:09:25 Venkat: But advertising is again back in business becuase new models
that are non intrusive, (like contextual advertising) got introduced to this
space..
20:09:32 sujamthe: Venkat, isn't merchandising in ecommerce about finding the
right items to be displayed at the right place for the targeted user?
20:09:39 Richard Seltzer: I recently signed up for upromise (before I knew you
would be a "speaker" here.
20:09:44 Venkat: Exactly !! Su
20:10:03 : changed name 24.61.115.217
20:10:10 Venkat: What we recognised is that online affiliates marketers ..who
are trying to
20:10:31 Venkat: leverage web as a sales channel are still relying on brute
forces sales models
20:10:39 jim: Hi, Just interested in learning this topic
20:10:47 Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Jim. We just got started. Please introduce
yourself and let us know your interests and dive into the discussion.
20:11:06 Venkat: however, when we introduced our eMiniMalls service, using an
interactive model, the results turned out to be amazing
20:11:33 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- I'm sorry, but the words you are using don't
mean anything to me. Can you simplify, please?
20:11:46 Venkat: Su, for merchandising to work, the marketer needs to fcus more
on the item rather than the "selller"
20:11:54 Richard Seltzer: What is "brute force sales model"? And what do you do
that's different?
20:12:04 sujamthe: Venkat, can you pl explain online impulse merchandising for
us?
20:12:22 Richard Seltzer: Simply, what business is Chikita in? Do you sell
anything?
20:12:44 Richard Seltzer: What is "impulse merchandising"?
20:12:49 Venkat: Impulse merchandising is all about enticing the user with
interesting products, based on the context
20:13:14 Richard Seltzer: What's the basis of your business? Do you somehow have
lots of traffic -- people who are looking to buy certain kinds of goods?
20:13:22 Venkat: and using an interactive model to work with the consumer to
help find what he or he might be interested in
20:13:25 jim: Isn't impulse mechansing about arranging tempting items accessible
to users in a regular store, how does it apply online?
20:13:54 sujamthe: Venkat: Agreed, like the temptation isles of all stores,
loaded with magazines and candies
20:13:55 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- I really am lost here. When I look at the
Chikita site, I see nothing but portal style lists of links, with no context
whatsoever.
20:14:07 Venkat: Richard, our model is that we help nline affiliates access
thousands of onoline deals and promtions from name brand mercahtns and promote
those products
20:14:27 Richard Seltzer: Where would I see anything tempting at Chikita? And
how would I get there in the first place?
20:14:47 sujamthe: Do you offer a technology that allows ecommerce sites to make
this display of their catalogs real-time? Or I am just dreaming up something of
my own here?
20:15:00 Venkat: Any nloine publihser can joinn our netwrk and place our
eMiniMalls on their sites
20:15:34 sujamthe: so the minimalls is a hosted co-branded product off your
site?
20:15:35 Venkat: It works similar to contextual advertising but instead of ads,
we display and promote products
20:15:44 Richard Seltzer: Apparently, then Chikita.com isn't the best place to
see what you do. Can you provide the URL of a site with one of your minimalls?
20:16:01 Venkat: As users click on those deals, the publisher earns revenue,
because we get paid by our merchant partners on a click basis
20:16:11 sujamthe: Venkat, now I get it. Interesting idea.
20:16:30 Venkat: Richard, you can see the eMiniMalls at:
20:16:39 Richard Seltzer: I'm slowing starting to see, I think. This sounds like
a second-generation affiliate thing.
20:16:49 sujamthe: Are these products that of other affiliates from your
network? Or they separate deals from branded product companies?
20:17:20 Venkat: http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolog/
20:17:25 sujamthe: If its all your affiliate products, then its like a link
exhange from the 90s.
20:17:40 Richard Seltzer: do you mean that rather than sign up at dozens of
separate companies to be their affiliate, you sign up once at Chikita, and then
promoted items appropriate for particular pages at your site
20:17:57 Richard Seltzer: show up autotmatically (based on context) in your
minimall?
20:18:39 Richard Seltzer: If it happens automatically, it's much beter than, and
more interesting than link exchanges. Is that the case?
20:19:01 Venkat: Yes Richard. We partnered with merchandise aggregators , so our
clients can access thousands of offers and promotions from our database
20:19:03 Richard Seltzer: Does the company signing up to have a minimall have to
pay a fee for it?
20:19:11 jim: Can you pl tell us what to look in this livingroom.org.au site
20:19:25 Venkat: No. it is free
20:20:20 Venkat: Jim: on that page look for the unit promoting nikon coopix
product
20:21:31 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- please explain more regarding that sample
site. Yes, I see the Nikon product. but so what? what is the minimall?
20:21:53 Richard Seltzer: I'd like to see a full-blown minimall with multiple
products, if such exsits.
20:22:07 Richard Seltzer: Or do you only display one promotion at a time?
20:22:16 Venkat: Well, lets use the unit on our front page: www.chitika.com
20:22:44 Richard Seltzer: What can I look to see the kinds of products that you
might promote at my site if I were to sign up? And can I block certain kinds of
products/offers?
20:22:46 Venkat: It is currently featuring the baby seat from Albee baby
20:23:11 sujamthe: I see it, the circuit city deal doesn't look like an ad, but
more like site content, but is from Chitika! Neat!
20:23:17 Venkat: If you compare this with a traditional online ad, you will
noticed several differences
20:23:27 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- are you saying that you only run one
promotion at a time at each affiliate site? If so, why do you refer to this as a
minimall?
20:23:34 Venkat: 1. It is desinged to place more emphasis on the product
20:24:11 Venkat: Clients to chose t set their eminimlass for a given product, or
a topic or choose to use the system in a contextual mode
20:24:25 Venkat: and then it will rotate through different products
20:24:34 Richard Seltzer: I don't see what you are talking about at chikita.com
20:24:42 sujamthe: I thought Google took ad model one step forward with Adsense
because of this contexual placement from its network of Adsense customers. So,
though chitka is not called ad, how does it different for a site owner?
20:24:44 Richard Seltzer: I do see a blank space in the top middle of the page.
20:25:02 Venkat: Also, you will notice that unlike a regular ad, you can scroll
over the tabs in the middle t access a variety of infrmation
20:25:10 Richard Seltzer: Are you displaying content in flash??? or some other
technique that millioins of Web users typically turn off???
20:25:26 Venkat: It is javascript based
20:25:38 jim: Is Circuit city your customer? I am curious who pays Chika or is
it a rev share? With whom?
20:26:07 Richard Seltzer: The main reason I'm not understanding you point is
probably that I can't see the page the way you designed it. (Just like not being
able to click on the links at the bottom of the page). That looks like a serious
design flaw.
20:26:28 sujamthe: I agree the format is cool, has some slick programming,
20:26:29 Venkat: We struck deals with large scale merchant listing s aggregators
such as SHopping.com , and also directly with several merchants
20:26:40 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- I can usually see javascript with my IE 6.0
browser. But I don't see this.
20:27:21 Venkat: Any time someone clicks on the merchant deals, we get paid for
the clicks and we pay ur client s(publishers) using the eminimalls on thier
sites
20:27:42 Richard Seltzer: That's probably why the chikita page struck me as a
plain-old-fashioned Web portal -- all I see is lists of links.
20:27:45 Venkat: Richard can your try this www.think2link.com
20:28:43 Richard Seltzer: Okay, there I see a Neiman Marcus offer. Why can I see
that, but cannot see the ad at chikita?
20:28:43 Venkat: Can you see the large banner unit at the top, (below the search
box)
20:28:51 sujamthe: Richard. we saw "Nikon Coolpix P4 Review at CNET and on
clicking it we came to a new page that has a box showing a new Best Deal. It
doens't say Chitika anywhere. What do you see?
20:29:32 Venkat: Richard, now, if you mouse over the three tabs
20:29:49 Richard Seltzer: At Chikita I don't see any ad at all -- just lists of
links. And there's a blank area in the middle near the top.
20:30:23 sujamthe: The Raffaello Network deal is from Chitika, now i see your
trademark JS box :-)
20:30:30 Venkat: For some reason, your browser seems to be blocking the
eMiniMalls unit on our front page
20:30:31 Richard Seltzer: Yes, I see the effects as I move the mouse over the
tables at think2link
20:30:51 Venkat: Scroll over the search tab to access the search bx
20:31:07 Venkat: Now search for "ipod"
20:31:26 Venkat: Use the search box in the unit
20:31:52 Richard Seltzer: Interesting. (But I do wish I understood why I don't
see anything at Chikita.
20:32:13 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Jaks. Please introduce youself, let us know
your interests and dive in to the conversation.
20:32:19 jim: I have to leave, will come back and check transcript, bye folks
20:32:36 Richard Seltzer: I'm trying to undersatnd, for my own business, how
this might work.
20:32:58 Venkat: Not sure whats going on there Richard. Something to d with the
javascript i guess
20:33:10 Richard Seltzer: Is your eminimall setup compatible with Adsense? In
other words, would adding it to a page have any effect on Gooogle adsense
participation?
20:33:41 sujamthe: Venkat can you post a screenshot for Richard to see and
followup with him to see why its not working for him?
20:33:41 Richard Seltzer: Also, are any of you participating merchants in the
book publishing/selling business?
20:33:52 Venkat: Richard, lets say you have a website and you are already
monetizing the traffic to your site using traditional ad programs such as
Google, or other ad networks
20:34:22 sujamthe: Richard, thats my question too. It looks a lot like Adsense
from the concept, UI maybe different
20:34:26 Richard Seltzer: And can an affiliate (like me) choose to include or
exclude particular merchants and offers (for instance to avoid having ads for a
competitor appear on my site).
20:35:02 Venkat: Yes Su, it is similar to other online ads..but it iis mre
product oriented
20:35:06 Richard Seltzer: Yes, I use Adsense. I'd be interested in adding a
minimall thing if I understood it better.
20:35:12 Venkat: (sorry for the loose fingers)
20:35:16 Venkat: :)
20:35:35 Richard Seltzer: First, do you display only one promotion at a time?
And does that mean that the space taken up on the page remains constant?
20:35:59 Venkat: It works exactly like AdSense, but it will display products and
product deals
20:36:03 Richard Seltzer: And does the affiliate have any say over what
promotions appear?
20:36:26 Venkat: It will display one product at a time.
20:36:52 Richard Seltzer: One reason for the success of Adsense is that they
have hundreds of thousands (if not millions of participants. How many affiliates
do you have?
20:37:03 Venkat: It will rotate thru different products if you choose to, r if
you are interested in nly promoting one item, you can set the service to always
display the same item
20:37:20 Venkat: We have over 10,000 affiliates who already joined our network
20:37:37 Richard Seltzer: Like AdSense, does this mean I put code on every page
where I want this to appear?
20:37:50 Venkat: So, Richard you can chse t use this in the "selef service" mode
where you get thabe pick the items
20:38:09 Richard Seltzer: And does your software then determine what the context
is on each page and display a different offer on each page?
20:38:16 Venkat: or in the full service" mode, and our system will automatically
select matching products
20:38:49 Venkat: Advantage of using this in the "self service" mode is that it
can then be used along with AdSense
20:38:53 Richard Seltzer: FYI -- Adsense is often terrible about determining
context. At my site the ads are rarely appropriate/related.
20:39:08 Venkat: also you can get to only select and display the items of your
choice
20:39:33 Richard Seltzer: Can I in self-service mode determine the overall
category of proeducts and then let your automation cycle through particular
products to display?
20:39:46 Venkat: We believe in giving the freedom of choice to the publisher
20:40:04 sujamthe: Adsense i supposed to find based on site content but goofs a
lot of times. How you do you find context?
20:40:13 Venkat: Yes. You and select a category
20:40:23 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- interesting. You say that in self-service
mode it is compatible with Adsense. Does that mean that in the other mode it
isn't?
20:41:13 Venkat: That si correct Richard. Google terms and conditions do nt
allow clients to use other contextual services
20:41:23 laks: I had not heard of chitika before this, I am curious to har of
teh 10,000 affiliates. What is their incentive
20:41:23 Richard Seltzer: Yes, how do you determine context? Some of my "pages"
are entire books (literally). Looking at the first paragraph won't tell you what
the page is about.
20:42:17 Richard Seltzer: I get about $300/month from Adsense. I have about 2000
pages (many book size). I get about 150,000 visitors/month.
20:42:29 Venkat: Incentive: An opportunity to supplement their current ad
revenue with revenue from merchandising revenue
20:42:54 Richard Seltzer: Is there any way to estimate what revenue I might get
from Chikita as an affiliate? (Presuming I go in self-service mode.
20:43:12 Venkat: Richard: With eMiniMalls you can continue to get your
$300/month and also earn additional revenue from our merchandising service
20:43:28 Richard Seltzer: Also, with self-service mode, do I put the same code
on every page?
20:43:52 Richard Seltzer: I'm trying to get a rough feel for what would be
reasonable to expect in additional revenue.
20:43:52 Venkat: That way you will be able to diversify and maximize your
revenue streams
20:45:21 Richard Seltzer: Do you pay on a basis similar to Adsense? (Monthly,
with a month delay?)
20:45:30 Venkat: It depends. We noticed that merchandising services like our
eMiniMalls will work best on sites with content related to products, product
reviews etc
20:46:00 Richard Seltzer: Venkat -- do you have publishers and booksellers among
your merchants?
20:46:17 Richard Seltzer: Much of my content deals with books and publishing.
20:46:27 Venkat: Payment model is very simialr to AdSense. Every click will earn
you revenue. You will get paid on a monthly basis
20:46:33 Richard Seltzer: Also is your code compatible with a WordPress blog?
20:46:52 Venkat: Yes. In fact we also have a word press pluggin
20:47:28 Richard Seltzer: I might also be interested in using your service as an
advertising medium. I publish books on CD and DVD.
20:47:59 Richard Seltzer: I've used Google Adwords, but it hasn't worked very
well for me.
20:48:13 Venkat: Essentially, we are leveraging the modle that worked well for
online advertising, adn we are now making it work for merchandiising
20:48:40 Richard Seltzer: What are your rates? Is this a space in which a small
cmpany can play (like Adwords)? Or is there a significant fixed cost?
20:49:07 Venkat: You can continue to use AdSense and also take our service out
for a spin and see if that works out for you
20:49:50 Richard Seltzer: My main problem will be trying to read content at the
Chikita site so I can learn the details, sign up etc.
20:49:54 Venkat: Richard, at this point we are only partnering with large scale
aggregators such as Shopping.com, Pricerunner etc
20:50:05 Richard Seltzer: is there some setting I should check in my IE browser?
20:50:11 Venkat: IN thew future we also want to offer this to individual sellers
20:50:17 Richard Seltzer: Or should I try a different browser, like Firefox?
20:50:35 Venkat: Can you try Firefox?
20:51:06 sujamthe: You have large affiliates 10K of them?
20:51:12 Richard Seltzer: I don't have Firefox right now. (I didn't have any use
for it, so I deleted it. But I can reinstall it easily and give it a try.
20:51:20 Venkat: Yes Su
20:51:57 Venkat: We launched the service late summer last year.
20:52:05 Richard Seltzer: I don't recall if you answered earlier -- do you have
publishers/booksellers among your merchandisers?
20:52:15 sujamthe: thats very impressive
20:52:40 Venkat: Richard can you please try this link:
http://scripts.chitika.net/eminimalls/300x250.html
20:53:03 Richard Seltzer: Suggestion -- it would be good to have a clear-text
explanation of your business model on your home page, with links for details, to
help people like me undestand the oppportunity.
20:53:36 Venkat: Absolutely. We are soon going to update our website
20:54:18 Richard Seltzer: Okay, at that url, I see an Amazon ad. So Amazon is
one of your partners. Anybody else in the publishing/bookselling busienss?
20:54:23 Venkat: Right now, we don't have books in our database. We are working
on launching a special eMiniMalls units specifically for books category
20:54:50 Richard Seltzer: Also, if I were to self-serve Amazon as an advertiser,
would the same Amazon offer appear on every one of my pages?
20:55:37 Richard Seltzer: That's unfortunate (that you don't have books yet).
20:55:37 Venkat: Here's the link to see all categories:
http://chitika.com/categories.php
20:55:56 Richard Seltzer: So amazon ads would come up for all kinds of things
unrelated to my context...
20:56:17 Venkat: It will depend on the selected keyword
20:56:39 Richard Seltzer: In any chase, I definitely want to give this a try.
Thanks for your patience and your explanations.
20:57:06 Richard Seltzer: We're getting close to the end of the hour. All,
please post here your email addresses and URLs, so we can stay in touch.
20:57:41 Venkat: Not at all Richard. We are specially focusing on online
merchandising and we are working on bringing to the market, such interactive
services that will help online affiliate marketers
20:57:52 Richard Seltzer: I'll capture the raw transcript of this conversation,
and as soon as time allows, I'll edit it to more readable form and post it on
the Web so others can benefit from the info.
20:58:18 Venkat: Thanks Richard. It's a pleasure
20:58:21 sujamthe: Thanks Venkat
20:58:26 Venkat: Thanks Su.
20:58:52 Richard Seltzer: Thanks Venkat, and Jim and Laks and Su.

Business Chat Monday June 12 wtih Christoper Penn, host of Financial Aid Podcast

2006-06-12T11:38:00.000-07:00

Please join us at http://iblogcom.blogspot.com/ on Monday, June 12 at noon - 1 PM Pacific Time, 3 - 4 PM Eastern Time. When you arrive at that blog, click on the diamond on right to join the chat.

We'll be chatting about "Broadcast Media and Podcasts" with guest Christopher Penn, host of Financial Aid Podcast.

Co-host Sudha Jamthe says, "I have listened to Podcasts of news items on the web, am not a regular carrying an ipod. I was at BarCamp Boston, the unconference (http://barcamp.org/BarCampBoston) the weekend of June 3/4 and presented a topic "Technology Commercialization: Concept to Business". Chris was there with a tiny recorder and produced the podcast and got it live so effortlessly ( I am sure he has mastered the efforts involved and has lots to share with us).

"That experience changed my perspective towards the world of Podcasts. The ease, the cost factor and the control in the hands of new broadcasters is amazing. Especially for BarCamp, it was an unconference, all arranged by the attendees on the fly and marketed by blogs and podcasts and online mailing lists. So, podcasts of the event was like live media coverage and its helped to reach more people who had missed BarCamp Boston.

"Let's chat with Christopher and understand the changes in the world of podcasts and all the technologies and trends right from a podcaster. Chris has hosted my talk from podcast here if you want to sample it http://www.financialaidpodcast.com/blog/2006/06/student-loan-radio-10-barcamp-boston.html (You can save or just open the mp3 file)."

2 June 2006 - 3pm EDT chat "Ecommerce in Web 2.0"

2006-05-31T07:39:00.000-07:00

Our next chat will be this Friday (not Wednesday) from 3-4 PM Eastern Time (noon to 1 PM Pacific Time).
Our guest will be Venkat Kolluri, CEO, Chitika, Inc. http://www.chitika.com/
Co-host Sudha Jamthe notes: “In this new era of Web 2.0, has commerce on the net changed? We hear a lot about communities in everything. With searches and ad revenues as king of e-business, has old fashioned e-commerce changed? Is merchandising on a web site the same as before? Are there are new tools and techniques for doing traditional tasks? Are there new tasks that need to be taken care of?
“Chitika is the industry’s leading impulse merchandising company. Chitika was founded in May 2003 and is based in Massachusetts. Chitika (pronounced CHIH-tih-ka) helps web publishers generate revenue using innovative publisher-side advertising and merchandising solutions and services.”
Venkat Kolluri Bio: Venkat is co-founder of Chitika and has served as President & CEO since the company’s inception. Venkat oversees all of Chitika’s operations, including it’s strategic direction and product planning, as well as corporate development. Previously, Venkat worked at Upromise, leading the Partner Services group in the Database Marketing & Analytics division. Prior to Upromise, he worked at Lycos as the Principal Technologist in the Marketing Services group and spearheaded the development and launch of several innovative Advertising and Marketing Automation products and services across the Lycos Network.
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Richard Seltzer

Transcript (unedited) of May 9th chat - Participatory Media Communities with Paul Jones

2006-05-24T13:18:00.000-07:00

15:00:21 Richard Seltzer: It's now 3 PM (Eastern Time). Let's get started. Paul, please introduce yourself and give us a quick overview of ibiblio.
15:00:58 sujamthe: I am back here
15:01:33 Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Ruby, we're just getting started. Please introduce yourself.
15:01:53 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- what's the main purpose and function of ibiblio?
15:02:35 Paul Jones: oops away for a moment
15:02:54 Richard Seltzer: I see that ibiblio used to be known as sunsite.unc.edu Are you still connected with the U. of North Carolina? Is your operation an education non-profit?
15:03:04 sujamthe: Hi Ruby
15:03:07 Paul Jones: ibiblio develops and serves people and group who want to share information freely
15:03:15 Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Jeff Smith, we're just getting started. Please introduce yourself.
15:03:30 Ruby: Hi, I'm Ruby Sinreich. I am the creator/editor/boss of a local politics blog in Chapel Hill. http://OrangePolitics.org Just here to soak up some of Paul's wisdom...
15:03:40 Paul Jones: ]we began as sunsite.unc.edu the first sunsite in 1992
15:03:40 Jeff Smith: Hi Richard. Hi Everyone
15:03:50 Paul Jones: halloween officially and aappropriately
15:03:56 Paul Jones: trick and treat
15:04:05 sujamthe: I am a startup advisor and one of the organizers of this chat. Hi Richard, maybe you can intro yourself too :-))
15:04:25 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- that's a very broad definition. There's all kinds of information sharing int he world. Do you specialize in text or audio or video or software? And what is your business model? Is this an all-volunteer non-profit operation? Or do you make money s
15:04:28 Jeff Smith: I'm Jeff Smith; technical director and search optimization specialist at Matrix Media Technologies in San Diego, CA
15:04:45 Paul Jones: sunsite/metalab/ibiblio are part of the university of north carolina
15:04:49 sujamthe: Hi Jeff
15:05:05 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Sayan, please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
15:05:07 Paul Jones: particularly the school of information and library science and
15:05:17 Jeff Smith: Hi Ruby
15:05:17 sujamthe: Pal, as sunsite it was not a community, like ibililio today, right?
15:05:17 Paul Jones: the school of journalism and mass communication
15:05:34 Richard Seltzer: So, Paul, are you an employee of UNC? or what is your role?
15:05:36 Sayan: I'm Sayan and I am a graduate student at the School of Information & Library Science here at UNC
15:05:36 Paul Jones: also for a long time part of the information tech services
15:05:55 Paul Jones: i'm faculty in both schools - journalism and info science
15:06:29 Richard Seltzer: I remember way back sunsite.unc.edu was one of the first and largest nodes on the Internet, and a great resources for public domain etexts. Even now don't you still serve as web host for the Gutenberg Project?
15:06:30 Paul Jones: i invented the sunsite program and the first site to be sunsite back a long time agao
15:06:32 Paul Jones: ago
15:06:51 Paul Jones: now we do much more as you can see by visiting ibiblio.org
15:07:08 Paul Jones: among the sites we facilitate by hosting and by development
15:07:13 Ruby: By way of introduction, I am also a consultant to nonprofits who want to utilize social networks and network-centric strategies into their advocacy. So I'm in terested in the topic of "Participatroy Media Communities" from many angles.
15:07:13 Richard Seltzer: Paul, interesting. I've seen the term "sunsite" many times. But I'm not sure what it means (aside from some connection with Sun Microsystems). Can you clarify?
15:07:36 Paul Jones: on SunSITE. it stands for something like
15:07:45 sujamthe: I remember older online communities where it waas newsgroups and lot of mailing list, there were quite a few with local groups attached as part of the old Boston Computer Society
15:07:55 Paul Jones: SUN Software, Information and Technology Exchange
15:08:19 Richard Seltzer: I've visited ibiblio, but still am not sure of the scope of waht you do -- some links are to other sites and some are to files at your site; and I suppose some are to non-profits hosted at your site. What's your overall goal?
15:08:24 Paul Jones: we started as a way not only to share software but to share other formats
15:08:33 sujamthe: Paul, was it a community when it started? How has it changed as ibibilio?
15:08:42 Paul Jones: in what were then developing protocols
15:08:50 Paul Jones: let me catch up a bit
15:09:08 sujamthe: ok, I'll wait
15:09:21 Paul Jones: yes over 15 years we've changed but not so much in some ways
15:09:25 Richard Seltzer: So what is your connection with Gutenberg? Are you just the host offering them Web space? Or are you responsible for making their 15,000+ books easy to find and easy to download?
15:09:45 Paul Jones: we've had funding independent of Sun for about half our life now
15:10:04 Paul Jones: we do more formats and more ambitious projects and more software development
15:10:28 Paul Jones: also we've gone from just proving a sandbox
15:10:46 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- getting to Su's questions; I'm curious too, in what sense is ibiblio a "social community"? And did it get that way on purpose, or did you wake up one day and find that that was the case?
15:10:51 Paul Jones: to providing a place while still experimental is also an archive
15:11:18 Paul Jones: waaaay back we set up a portal called launchpad
15:11:32 Paul Jones: that gave access to the newsgroups etc that su mentioned
15:11:33 Richard Seltzer: I see lots of linux related archives at ibiblio, also lots of RSS feeds. Is linux a major project for you?
15:11:45 Brian Russell: hello. I'm a podcaster and blogger at AudioActivism.org which is hosted by ibiblio.org
15:11:47 Paul Jones: we allowed annonymous reading for example
15:11:55 Paul Jones: which seemed important
15:12:00 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Brian. Please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
15:12:32 Paul Jones: we also provided access to all of the GNU software and eventually, once it was invented, Linux
15:12:40 Brian Russell: I live in Chapel Hill, NC and work at UNC.
15:12:51 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- I'm curious. Is there a connection between social networking/online communicties and the kind of search engine optimization work you normally do?
15:13:00 Paul Jones: so we had a software community and an active creative community
15:13:08 Richard Seltzer: Brian -- are you connected with ibiblio?
15:13:15 Brian Russell: I'm interested in bridging the digital divide, helping others learn how to make their own media.
15:13:28 Brian Russell: No. I am not connected with ibiblio. Just a fan and a user.
15:13:41 Paul Jones: brian put on the podcastercon.org here with help from ibib
15:14:03 Paul Jones: do we want to talk about community?
15:14:07 Jeff Smith: Absolutely. The search engines are always looking for was to base rankings on less and less manipulatable data. Usage statistics are one metric that is very difficult to manipulate on a large scale.
15:14:10 Brian Russell: PodcasterCon is an unconference created by participants.
15:14:32 sujamthe: unconference?
15:14:46 Paul Jones: http://podcastercon.org
15:14:52 Brian Russell: an unconference is basically an event where the particpants determine the content
15:14:57 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- so is the heart of your "community" software developers invovled in GNU sowtware and Linux? And is your main social activity making it easy for them to share and comment on and improve on that open source software? In other words, is this a piece
15:15:00 Brian Russell: we used a wiki
15:15:10 Jeff Smith: So, creating social functions on sites is a great way to convey a high degree of user satisfaction (ie visitor stays on site longer, visits more pages after finding it via search results)
15:15:31 Paul Jones: in ancient days yes. but now we're involved in many comminuties
15:15:43 Paul Jones: say tape traders at etree.org
15:15:50 Paul Jones: say video bloggers
15:15:59 Jeff Smith: Also, as links are the main ingredient to high rankings now we're looking to more social (viral) ways of doing link development. Much better than sending out reciprocal link requests!
15:16:05 Paul Jones: distributed editting at gutenburg
15:16:10 Sayan: book readers at librivox.org
15:16:24 Paul Jones: GPS explorers at confluence.org
15:16:45 Paul Jones: we are involved in supporting and developing communities of all kinds
15:16:50 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- in other words, you want to work with sites that are online community hubs in some way? If so, how would you like to work with them? For instance, what business model could come into play with a site like ibiblio?
15:17:06 sujamthe: Jeff: what do you mean by social ways of link development, how its is different from viral, refer 6 friends for a service?
15:17:22 Paul Jones: http://lyceum.ibiblio.org is an open source blog sphere for example
15:18:00 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- I perceive that some of the very best community sites operate in association with universities and are, for the most part non-profit. Are there advertising models that could be non-invasive adn consistent with the site's goals and that could help
15:18:02 sujamthe: Paul, its amazing, I saw etree.org, didn't realize so many other communities
15:18:04 Paul Jones: at present we don't do social linking like say digg or annotated links like del.icio.us
15:18:11 Brian Russell: lyceum is based on wordpress
15:18:14 Brian Russell: btw
15:18:17 Paul Jones: most are communities
15:18:36 Paul Jones: yes on lyceum. it's WP as install once run many blogs
15:18:44 sujamthe: Pl tell us about this public domain community trend - who are these people. techies only? what makes the groups self-governing?
15:18:53 Paul Jones: most are communities of practive
15:19:20 Paul Jones: k. amongst the groups we've been involved with early on is creative commons
15:19:31 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- do you do anything special with public domain books in etext form? or do projects like Gutenberg just use your computing capacity to make their stuff available?
15:19:38 Paul Jones: the icommons.org international group is their latest
15:19:52 Paul Jones: yes and yes on books
15:20:15 Paul Jones: so we pretty much give tech support to gutenburg, but
15:20:16 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- I'm not familiar with all the current buzzwords. Can you define "communities of practice" and "creative commons", please?
15:20:56 Paul Jones: yes first this. with documenting the american south or folkstreams.net we are more handson
15:21:06 Ruby Sinreich: Those are not buzzwords.
15:21:21 Ruby Sinreich: They are standards for online community building.
15:21:23 Paul Jones: "communities of practice" = folks that get to gether to do something specific
15:21:24 Richard Seltzer: Are all the sites and projects that you help and support "non-proft"? Often there are small and on-person operations on the web that have goals similar to non-profits.
15:21:32 Ruby Sinreich: http://CreativeCommons.org
15:21:41 Paul Jones: say surfing, say knitting, say gps explorations
15:22:23 Paul Jones: creative commons goes international with http://icommons.org
15:22:55 Richard Seltzer: Ruby. I'm still not clear on this. "Community" is a rather general and vague term. How do you define it? (I presume that you ahve to define it precisely in order to develop "standards" for it).
15:23:25 Paul Jones: but also for your amusement see larry lessig speaking in 1998 at unc at http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/speakers/lessig
15:23:46 Ruby Sinreich: I don't mean standards like things you measure, but like things that are standard or basic.
15:23:55 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- can you give an example of a "more social way of doing link development"? is this someone, like me, with a small business/personal Web site could do?
15:24:03 Paul Jones: well the nature of communities is that they tend to define and redefine themselves
15:24:32 Paul Jones: so a group may start out as info about, literally, tibetan human rights and democracy
15:24:37 Jeff Smith: Richard - there is probably not a way, with advertising restrictions being what they are, that .edu sites can work in that way.
15:25:06 Paul Jones: and then some members decide they need to create an AIDs related site for Tibetans and visitors to Dharmasala
15:25:28 Paul Jones: the some others will work on that say
15:25:32 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- thants for the links/references. I'll track those down afterwards. (No time now). FYI -- I'll post an edited version of the transcript of this chat so we can go back and check such things, and point other people to the discussion who weren't ab
15:25:39 Jeff Smith: Jeff- Ok, here's an example of a social way of doing link development: We're developing a site, just like myspace, but for a large specific niche. The main differences are that we make some of our users money and we offer more of a rating based system.
15:26:23 Jeff Smith: The social link part is that we offer them code they can place on their blog, site, other sites' profiles, etc to get themselves "ranked" elsewhere and that links back to us.
15:26:27 Paul Jones: how about a site called FaceSpaceDiggilicousrrr
15:26:30 Jeff Smith: Sorry, didn't mean to put "Jeff-"
15:26:45 Brian Russell: I think Jeff has hit on precisely why not for profit sites (individuals and groups) are on the forefront of social networks. Commerce isn't clouding our innovation.
15:27:00 Paul Jones: it would combine face book, myspace, digg, flickr, flappr, and delicious
15:27:08 sujamthe: Ruby, I just saw your site and curious, whats network centric activism?
15:27:16 Brian Russell: because not for profits usually don't advertise we concentrate on movement buildign and education
15:27:39 Brian Russell: IMHO
15:27:43 Jeff Smith: So, what we would have paid thousands of dollars for we end up getting for free AND we've been able to give users a way to promote themselves and add unique content to their own sites.
15:27:46 Paul Jones: jeff how would that work on a highly hetrogenous site like ibiblio?
15:28:05 Jeff Smith: Brian, I'd have to say that MySpace is on the forefront.. would you?
15:28:12 sujamthe: Jeff, isn't it same as the prior model of companies asking to link to them as "powered by so and so"?
15:28:20 Ruby Sinreich: Well I don't want to fork this discussion even further, but network-centric advocacy is an an approach that puts activists first, allowing them to build and use their own social networks,a nd to lead movements from the bottom up.
15:28:20 Richard Seltzer: Brian -- interesting. I always throught of commerce as providing incentive for innovation, rather than clouding it. There are always far more things that you could do than you have time and resources to do. Commercial helps you sort out which to focus o
15:28:38 Jeff Smith: Suja - Similar, however this is dynamic content.
15:29:02 Jeff Smith: Our control panel makes it like AdSense
15:29:14 Brian Russell: jeff - in the mainstream MySpace may have the most users. Not sure if this equals forfront or not
15:29:18 Jeff Smith: they can customize everything to match and select which types of pictures to display, etc.
15:29:20 Paul Jones: i see
15:29:23 sujamthe: jeff, whats changes dynamically?
15:29:39 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- do you have a Web page on which you explain your concept? It's a bit too complex for me to grasp on the fly like this.
15:29:41 Jeff Smith: Paul - I'm not exactly sure; it depends on teh goals of the site.
15:29:45 Paul Jones: not all innovation is driven by profit motive as even Jeff is telling us
15:30:06 Ruby Sinreich: Yes, Paul!
15:30:09 Paul Jones: see in particular Yochai Benkler's Wealth of Networks
15:30:10 Ruby Sinreich: Amen.
15:30:18 Jeff Smith: Richard - Actually, the site will be on our testing server in about 7 days. It should go live in about 3-4 weeks.
15:30:22 sujamthe: Paul, true, but profit motives is what brings in capital to scale it.
15:30:40 Paul Jones: Yochai talks intelligently about non-market production
15:30:49 Ruby Sinreich: A lot of key social technologies don't need capital.
15:30:50 Jeff Smith: Paul - Absolutely agree. It just requires resources.
15:30:53 Paul Jones: which is not opposed to market production
15:31:01 Jeff Smith: Different organizations obtain them different ways.
15:31:10 Ruby Sinreich: Resources = not just money.
15:31:11 Paul Jones: but is situated beside and interacting with the market
15:31:16 Ruby Sinreich: Are you all familiar with open source software?
15:31:24 Jeff Smith: Ruby - correct
15:31:29 Jeff Smith: Yes
15:31:30 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- It's my sense that there are several different stages to innovation. There's the early brainstorming phase, when you want untrrammelled creativity. Then once you have a thousand ideas on the table, you need to sort through them to determine whic
15:31:37 sujamthe: Agree, open source movement has diff motivation.
15:31:41 Ruby Sinreich: they have developed some amazingly powerful tools using non-monetary resources (ie: smart peopel who wantto help each other)
15:31:43 Paul Jones: yes OSS is one example in which non-market and market interact
15:31:43 Brian Russell: Richard - by clouding I mean priorities on commercial sites are different than not for profit sites and set you down a different path of decisions.
15:31:55 sujamthe: I am amazed at what motivates social communities like the ones Paul hosts?
15:32:31 Paul Jones: we've gotten a bit from ibibl
15:32:47 Paul Jones: hang on i've got a call from Khartoom
15:32:49 Paul Jones: literally
15:33:12 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- for instance, open source projects like Linux, can go far in terms of development. But to take it to the next stage, to make it available for use by the non-technical public, you need a commercial incentive -- that's where companies like Red Hat
15:33:16 Paul Jones: back
15:33:34 Paul Jones: things don;t look to market driven there at the moment ;->
15:33:58 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- Khartoum? That's impressive. But a call? A physical phone call? You could have done that a little classier... :-)
15:34:02 Paul Jones: i would avoid deterministic frameworks like stages
15:34:05 Ruby Sinreich: What about Firefox?
15:34:06 Paul Jones: skype
15:34:17 Brian Russell: thunderbird
15:34:32 Brian Russell: Open Office
15:34:33 sujamthe: Riuby, sorry I missed if you already explained netcentric campaigns
15:34:34 Paul Jones: yes market opportunities arise from non-market
15:34:40 Ruby Sinreich: OSS can bu just as user-friendly and accesible as commercial software. cometimes more so.
15:34:45 Paul Jones: byt not necessarily in stages
15:34:52 Ruby Sinreich: I did, Su. Scoll up. :-)
15:35:02 Paul Jones: skype to khrtoom
15:35:10 Richard Seltzer: Paul and Ruby -- I'm getting the sense that when you talk about "community" you primarily mean a community of software developers working on open software projects. Is that the case?
15:35:21 Ruby Sinreich: that's one kind of community.
15:35:35 Ruby Sinreich: i often think of the community of people who participate on my local politics blog.
15:35:47 Ruby Sinreich: or the community of friends I have on flickr, for example.
15:35:49 Paul Jones: only one type of community of practice
15:35:53 Paul Jones: folks that do something
15:36:02 Ruby Sinreich: Yep.
15:36:02 Paul Jones: and build something
15:36:08 Richard Seltzer: Paul and Ruby -- if you experience is primarily with sosftware developer communities, are any of the lessons you have learned from that community development applicable to profit-making businesses and non-technical users of the Internet?
15:36:13 Paul Jones: and yes there are market opportunities there
15:36:48 Paul Jones: well, the cluetrain folks have the more or less early take on web 2.0
15:36:59 Ruby Sinreich: I'm not interested in profit-making businesses, personally. My primary experiences are with nonprofits that advocate for certain causes.
15:37:17 Paul Jones: so that is one interaction between
15:37:22 Paul Jones: profit is fine by me
15:37:25 Ruby Sinreich: Ditto, Paul. http://cluetrain.com
15:37:27 Richard Seltzer: Paul and Ruby -- when you think of a "community" how many people are you talking about? less than a dozen? more than a dozen? hundreds? thousands? millions? are different capabilities important for supporting communities of radically different size?
15:37:48 Paul Jones: both can interact and benefit
15:38:02 Paul Jones: getting a darfur report in the background
15:38:09 Sayan: and they can scale up from being small to hundred...
15:38:24 Ruby Sinreich: there is no limit to how small or lareg a community can be, it depends on what its function is.
15:38:38 Ruby Sinreich: social networks usually top out around 150 and then get unweildy.
15:39:14 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- My take is a bit different. I think of a "non-profit" as basically bureaucracy driven -- starting from the bureaucratic hoops one has to jump through to satisfy government tax-related definitions of non-profit. Small operations (say one-person c
15:39:29 sujamthe: Interesting enough, the cluetrain folks were here at the older version of this chat in Feb 2000 http://www.samizdat.com/clue.html
15:39:48 Paul Jones: well tha;s one way to do it
15:40:00 Ruby Sinreich: "non-profit" is a description of an organization's tax status, but doesn't really describe what it is.
15:40:24 Paul Jones: but remember america always amazed europeans because we all volunteer so much
15:40:34 sujamthe: Paul, what are the market opportunites you see?
15:40:39 Ruby Sinreich: a nonprofit or nongovernmental organizaion is simply a collection of people who want to incorporate for an altruistic purpose instead of making money.
15:40:39 Paul Jones: and we always form and join organizations
15:40:40 Richard Seltzer: Yes, the principles of Cluetrain are basic princiiples of interaction on the Internet and good business practice on the Intenret and respecting customers and doing what you can to serve your audience. Nothing non-profit about it.
15:40:50 Paul Jones: in OSS for example
15:41:07 Paul Jones: you saw Cygnus early on interacting with GNU
15:41:25 sujamthe: I see this trend of communities evolving beyond the OSS world, and can think of market opportunities for specific businesses if they took it in the spirit of the community
15:41:34 Ruby Sinreich: I think of teh Cluetrain Manifesto as network-centric marketing.
15:41:39 Paul Jones: you see many interactions with Linux from Red Hat to Ubantu
15:41:40 Paul Jones: the last being almost a humanitarian project
15:41:54 Ruby Sinreich: Nonprofits can adapt cluetrain ideas by replacing the work "customer" with "supporter"
15:41:57 Paul Jones: marketing is message communitcation
15:42:07 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- the key word there is "incorporate". Small companies don't need to do that, don't need to tie themselves up that way. (Sorry. Personal prejudice of mine. I see too many traditioanl non-profits wasting lots of time and energy raising money, when
15:42:16 Ruby Sinreich: sorry, the wor_D_
15:42:21 Paul Jones: IBM interacting with Apache is another example
15:42:43 Ruby Sinreich: i don't see what incorporating has to do with it. some communities do, some don't.
15:43:04 Ruby Sinreich: BTW Richard, your posts are getting cut off after 2 lines.
15:43:13 Brian Russell: Nice chatting with ya'll. I need to go back to work.
15:43:17 Brian Russell: :)
15:43:26 sujamthe: incorporation is more for legal protection where money is involved.
15:43:30 Paul Jones: i agree incorporating is one way to deal with problems and challenges
15:43:35 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- thanks for letting me know about the cut offs.
15:43:36 Paul Jones: yes
15:43:54 Richard Seltzer: I see all of what I type here on the "host" page I'm using and didn't know others didn't.
15:43:57 sujamthe: Thanks for coming Brian, you can come back and read the transcripts, Richard will edit so we can read diff threads of discussions.
15:44:02 Paul Jones: but one can still make $$$ unincorporated as many third world economies prove
15:44:09 Richard Seltzer: Of course, my greatest insights appear on line 3 :-)
15:44:10 Paul Jones: and BTW underground economies
15:44:17 Ruby Sinreich: :-)
15:44:50 Paul Jones: can we post images here? (big sandstrom in khartoom
15:45:05 Richard Seltzer: I'm still a bit fuzzy on the word "community"
15:45:25 sujamthe: no images, send a url for it
15:45:32 Paul Jones: that's because you want a solid def of a negotiated meaning
15:45:41 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- No. We can't post images here. But give me a URL and I'll include a link (or even the phicture) in the transcript.
15:45:45 Paul Jones: not online so later if appropriate
15:46:01 Paul Jones: the perils of multitasking
15:46:09 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- you could email at photo at seltzer@samizdat.com
15:46:36 sujamthe: I am trying to get to some key understanding of whats changed now to cause these communities to form?
15:46:39 Richard Seltzer: I sense that there many different degrees of community interaction.
15:47:03 Richard Seltzer: Basic is letting people ask questions and posting their questiosn and your answers on your Web page.
15:47:14 Richard Seltzer: The automated form of that basic interaction is a blog.
15:47:35 Sayan: suja.. i think the tools to interact within and outside the community have become available, easy to use and usually free
15:47:35 Richard Seltzer: Next is a chat or forum, when more than two people interact on the same subject.
15:47:36 Paul Jones: ibiblio isn''t limitied to commiunities thos
15:47:49 sujamthe: I've been part of Bostobn Computer Society and know people can volunteer passionately and do wonderful work. But creating something thats sustains itself, doesn't it require a company? whats the variable that makes these communities survive and perform
15:47:50 Paul Jones: passionate individuals also have projects
15:48:02 Richard Seltzer: Next is a series of interactions -- the same set of people returning with some regularity to talk about the same subject.
15:48:11 Paul Jones: for example 10 years ago Roger McGuinn started putting
15:48:20 sujamthe: Thanks sayan, you mean, I can setup a wiki and allow a community to build?
15:48:37 sujamthe: I have an example of a successful community gethuman.com
15:48:37 Richard Seltzer: Next is goal-oriented continuing discussion -- where the people involved are actually coming to a decision and will take action of some kind together.
15:48:51 Paul Jones: a different folksong on the net every month
15:49:06 Paul Jones: now he has over 100 songs
15:49:19 Richard Seltzer: Next is something like "continuous devleopment: or "continuous improvement" as with open-ended, growing software and political projects.
15:49:22 Sayan: suja.. if u already have friends as seed members of a community , instead of writing individual mails... u can start contributing to a blog/wiki
15:49:29 Paul Jones: and he sells CDs and sells out concerts
15:49:31 sujamthe: my friend paul english started a cheatsheet to get to the operator in 800 numbers and its evolved into a community volunteer driven and maintains the list.
15:49:54 Jeff Smith: Suja, that gethuman.com ?
15:49:56 Paul Jones: yes on community. the tech only facilitates the people
15:49:59 sujamthe: It appears motivation is access to those short-cuts, but theres something more.
15:50:11 Richard Seltzer: Su -- Can you give a quick definition of a wiki and how that relates to "communityh"?
15:50:15 Paul Jones: imagine a blank craig's list!
15:50:21 sujamthe: Do you see anything else common ora driving factor forming these communities?
15:50:31 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- in what sense is ibiblio related to "wiki" style development?
15:50:35 Paul Jones: passion
15:50:49 Paul Jones: passion as an answer to su
15:51:04 Richard Seltzer: It's possible that a more concrete definition of social community would focus on the software it is built around.
15:51:10 Paul Jones: now to richard. wiki is a specific tech
15:51:18 sujamthe: wiki is a tool like a blog, but allows users to come edit a web site.
15:51:38 Richard Seltzer: I'm thinking forum/chat, blog, etc. And maybe "wiki" now (if I had a clearer idea of what that meant).
15:51:45 Paul Jones: wikis are on ibiblio but they really do require an active core of people to keep alive
15:51:48 sujamthe: passion for a cause thats the initial goal of the community?
15:52:16 Paul Jones: not a goal but a driver to the goal
15:52:22 Sayan: yes
15:52:22 sujamthe: Richard you know wikipedia, wiki tools are available for people to allow others to write.
15:52:23 Richard Seltzer: What' makes a "wiki" work? What makes it grow to a community?
15:52:37 Paul Jones: if you wanted to create a community of folks interested in cream of wheat
15:52:55 Paul Jones: and no one cared enough to post or work on the site etc
15:53:01 Paul Jones: then you get zip
15:53:01 sujamthe: Many user groups have wikis to allow members to post their bio and if they'd attend a meeting, remember the Boston Innovation Group wiki?
15:53:08 Richard Seltzer: I understand that wikipedia grew up around the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britiannica, with volunteers adding to that, and then refining one anothers contributions.
15:53:09 Paul Jones: you may have all the goals you want
15:53:32 Paul Jones: if people if only a few if only you say are passionate about cream of wheat
15:53:39 Richard Seltzer: Do you need a large and useful document, and a group of people who really care about that document, to built a wiki community?
15:53:49 Paul Jones: passionalte enough to work and contribute and build
15:54:01 Paul Jones: you may attract others who share that passion
15:54:10 sujamthe: Paul, good point. Thats where many companies who adopted chat and forum failed as they couldn't build community.
15:54:27 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- I understand the need for passion. But don't you also need core document to begin with?
15:54:34 sujamthe: Even today most think of community as the people already on their site.
15:54:36 Paul Jones: not really.
15:54:40 Ruby Sinreich: Richardm i don't think you need a docuemnt. Just people who have passion and knowledge or ideas.
15:54:46 sujamthe: Paul, a pratical question -
15:54:55 Richard Seltzer: Don't you need a seed? (and isn't a large useful text the most natural seed?)
15:54:59 Jeff Smith: Depending on the commerciallness of the topic of your wiki or the topics covered in your wiki you need more moderating.
15:55:00 Paul Jones: as jenny preece says in her Online Communities book:
15:55:08 Ruby Sinreich: No, just a topic.
15:55:21 Paul Jones: you need people (i'd say passionate people), purpose, and policy
15:55:37 Jeff Smith: "Just people who have passion and knowledge or ideas." Aggree
15:55:39 Jeff Smith: Agree
15:55:40 Sayan: topic and a willingness to build up from scratch if need be
15:55:41 Ruby Sinreich: Rivhard, it seems you are assuming users are only re-active, they can also be pro-active.
15:55:51 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- I'd think that a core document and wiki style adding and editing might accomplish your goals.
15:55:58 Paul Jones: that helps a lot but sometimes it will develop in the interactions
15:56:04 sujamthe: Richard and I have been organizing this chat since 1996, I am more involved now in this blogchat format. We have a loyal base of users who are on our mailing list, some come if it suits their timing to the chat, many come and read the transcripts -
15:56:10 Paul Jones: if you are looking for a wiki cookbook
15:56:20 sujamthe: Richard religiously edits so the threads are readable.
15:56:22 Paul Jones: then youcan say that
15:56:38 Paul Jones: thank gawd for richard!
15:56:40 sujamthe: For some topics, people email ahead of time with comments if they can't make it.
15:56:43 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- No. I imagine a wiki community consisting of many very interested and active people. it's just easier for me to imagine them sticking together and working together is there's a core document.
15:56:45 Paul Jones: typing is not writing
15:56:52 Paul Jones: speaking is not writing
15:57:05 Jeff Smith: I think for starters you need a goal with a Wiki. If you define a goal then the users can help shape the wiki to meet that goal.
15:57:14 Paul Jones: this highly interactive commnuication is good in this form but
15:57:23 Jeff Smith: IE to have the largest recipe database online.
15:57:25 Jeff Smith: ,et c
15:57:27 Paul Jones: reading it later it's hard ot make sense
15:57:44 Sayan: some wikis start off with just a blank structure,,, which people fill in the gaps and add content
15:57:55 sujamthe: Paul, now, is this a community? Is it possible to make it a wiki or some other tool based system to let a community drive its goals. Currently Richard and I set the goals on learning web trends and evolvng b-models, can this be a self-driving community?
15:57:57 Paul Jones: right jeff. purpose, policy, people
15:58:08 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- Okay. This will be a challenge, to reconstitute the threads of this discussion in readable from. But that's what we always do.
15:58:23 sujamthe: Whats the formula to make it happen? More to decide if it fits the participatory community model?
15:58:28 Richard Seltzer: I only hope I can do it well this time, because the discussion has been very intersting.
15:59:08 Paul Jones: how to describe a commnuity model is a lot like describing the ideal government
15:59:17 Paul Jones: it varies by culture
15:59:23 Richard Seltzer: I guess what I'm looking for is a model for building a useful and productie community. I suspect wiki based, and with a core document.
15:59:37 Paul Jones: but preece's 3 ps are fairly useful
15:59:44 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- and many people have tried to describe the ideal govenment...
16:00:02 Paul Jones: plato is the worst
16:00:19 Paul Jones: no one has it perfect but they keep tuning
16:00:36 Richard Seltzer: In any case, we're at the end of the hour. Thanks to all. Please post your email addresses and URL so we can stay in touch.
16:00:47 Paul Jones: i suspect we're not done getting government right
16:00:50 Paul Jones: ;->
16:00:52 Richard Seltzer: Thanks very much Paul in particular, as our guest speaker.
16:01:03 Ruby Sinreich: Thanks Richard & Su for putting this together.
16:01:04 Paul Jones: hope you can read my typing
16:01:11 Richard Seltzer: Please let us know if you have topics and speakers you'd like to suggest for future sessions.
16:01:14 Paul Jones: thanks for inviting me. it's been fun
16:01:20 Paul Jones: will do
16:01:24 Jeff Smith: Thanks everyone
16:01:27 sujamthe: Thanks everybody. Thanks Paul
16:01:30 Paul Jones: sorry to miss su in cambridge
16:01:32 Sayan: this was very interesting and fun ! thanks !
16:01:38 Richard Seltzer: Thanks to all. Do please post contact info before leaving.
16:01:44 sujamthe: Paul, pl tell people about your conference topic and time at harvard
16:01:57 Paul Jones: http://ibiblio.org/pjones/blog
16:01:59 Jeff Smith: Jeff Smith jsmith@matrixmt.com
16:02:02 sujamthe: I am so soooooooory I'l miss it :-(
16:02:09 Ruby Sinreich: You can find me at http://lotusmedia.org. there are links there to my other things.
16:02:14 Sayan: Sayan Chakraborty c.sayan@gmail.com www.sayanc.net
16:02:16 Richard Seltzer: Richard Seltzer seltzer@samizdat.com http://www.samizdat.com
16:02:18 Paul Jones: beyond broadcast http://beyondbroadcast.net
16:02:32 Richard Seltzer: Thanks again.
16:02:39 Paul Jones: friday and saturday at the berkman center at harvard law
16:02:56 Paul Jones: paul jones <jones@unc.edu>
16:03:02 Ruby Sinreich: Bye y'all.
16:03:16 Paul Jones: sea ewe l8r
16:04:01 Sayan: Bye !
16:04:18 sujamthe: Pal, say hi to Bill Gannon, and tell him about this chat, I've xchanged emails with him and would like to invite him here sometime in future.
16:04:32 sujamthe: Bye everybody

Open Phone movement for community built phone

2006-05-10T11:36:00.000-07:00

MercuryNews.com 05/10/2006 New can-do club wants to build better cell phone

Thought this was a nice addition to our chat y'day about participatory media communities.

Click below to join our chattoday

2006-05-09T11:43:00.000-07:00

Click here to join blogchat today

May 9th noon PDT chat - Participatory Media Communities

2006-05-07T20:03:00.000-07:00

What: Blogcom chat "Participatroy Media Communities"
Guest: Paul Jones, director of Paul Jones director of ibiblio http://www.ibiblio.com known as “The Public’s Library — a large contributor-run digital library.” Paul also has on-going research interest in Open source and Sharing Communities and Information policy issues.
When: Tues May 9th 3pm EDT

Web 2.0 sure has an unique trend that people seem more empowered and are interacting as online communities.

The open source movement has been around for while and its more than online communities with a disciplined set of smart people developing ad building upon each other work building out the public domain. Now we can find equivalent of every possible commercial software in the open source world.

We hear lot of talk about social communities following friendster and myspace.com It seems to be teens or young crowd of a certain profile.

Whats not be talked about much, is the public domain communities that have taken the open source model and built out participatory communities on topics ranging over a wide spectrum. Its a community of geographically diverse people and they follow the discipline of formingand adhering to the rules of the community in forming online content.

wikipedia, ibibilio.com, several other wiki based communities all form under this category.

Whats their magic? What do they teach us? What is the change that has caused people to galavanize such communities online and where is it going? where is it taking us?

Looking for a good hosted wiki solutions

2006-05-02T21:58:00.000-07:00

These are the top two hosted wikis Schtuff and Writeboard.
Details about each here -Two great free hosted wiki services - thanks to The Bumble Bee

I came across Schtuff accidently when I fund about hosted wikis about a year's time back. Unfortunately I could not remember the site name again to go back till I stepped on it accidently today.
One of our blogcom users told us about Writeboard. Richard and I share a writeboard and explored it afresh not thinking it was a wiki. The problem with it is that it expects me to remember some crytic URL assigned to my writeboard, which is automatically generated name and impossible to remember.

I like twiki and many of the wiki softwares.
Can someone please please tell me about a hosted wiki that as good as twiki? I don't mind paying for it if it has smooth usability.

Thanks, Sudha

Transcript (unedited) of Apr 19th chat - Web 2.0 with Kat Ortland

2006-05-02T21:34:00.000-07:00

14:59:30 Richard Seltzer: All -- its just about time to start. Please introduce yourselves and let us know in what way you are interested in Web 2.0.
15:00:02 sujamthe: Hi Richard
15:00:09 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- Can you please give a quick definition of Web 2.0, and let us know why you think this terminology is important.
15:00:23 Richard Seltzer: Hi Sudha. We're just getting started.
15:00:38 sujamthe: Good, Hi Kat
15:00:42 Kat Ortland: Hi all, I'm Kat Ortland, project manager for SEOmoz.org and creator of the Web 2.0 Awards (web2.0awards.org)
15:01:11 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- along with a definition of Web 2.0, could you please tell us what "Web 2.0 Awards" is?
15:01:38 sujamthe: Richard, you sould share you summary of O'Reillys article on web 2.0, that will be a good starting point
15:02:02 Kat Ortland: For the purpose of this chat, I'd like to define Web 2.0 as a web trend that represents a move toward user-created content and user-empowerment on the web as a platform for all things
15:02:04 Richard Seltzer: At this point, all I know about Web 2.0 is what I read in the O'Reilly article. That leaves me wondering -- what's new?
15:02:45 Richard Seltzer: From the O'Reilly article, I understand that Web 2.0 implies such principles as:
15:02:54 Kat Ortland: The Web 2.0 Awards was a project we began at SEOmoz out of curiosity for what was happening in the web space that had so recently caught people's attention
15:03:06 Richard Seltzer: no central control: that was the fundamental design principle of the Internet, long before there was a Web
15:03:25 Richard Seltzer: second point -- main benefit of the Internet comes from letting people connect to people: that has always been true
15:03:26 Kat Ortland: we decided to collect the most well-known, best, and newest "Web 2.0" sites, categorize them, and rank them
15:03:46 Richard Seltzer: third point -- allow everyone to become a publisher -- an actie participant -- instead of a passive consumer: that has always been the best approach
15:03:52 Rand Fishkin: I think we've really seen that Web 2.0 means a lot of different things to different people at this pont
15:04:01 sujamthe: Kat, when did you get exposed to the term web 2.0? What were your initial thoughts?
15:04:06 Kat Ortland: that's true, Rand
15:04:08 Richard Seltzer: fourth point -- allow natural order to emerge from massive chaos
15:04:34 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- yes, we'd like to define this "web space ath caught people's attention"
15:04:38 Kat Ortland: I became familiar with Web 2.0 sometime in the fall of last year
15:04:54 Richard Seltzer: It sounds like the original Internet, before it got distorted.
15:04:58 sujamthe: Kat, there are lot of awards on the web, your web 2.0 awards is a class apart. Well researched and I love the interviews of real people.
15:05:05 Kat Ortland: I had already noticed a shift in Web trends but last fall was the first time I heard the term
15:05:21 Kat Ortland: thank you, suhamthe, we had a great time putting it together
15:05:23 Rand Fishkin: Web 2.0 is really defined by all the people who are attempting to leverage it (companies, too)
15:05:39 Rand Fishkin: Kat's right - the trend started and I think folks were out for a name
15:05:41 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- what shift? that's what's confusing to me.
15:05:49 Kat Ortland: a lot of people seem to think that Web 2.0 implies some sort of new technology on the web
15:06:02 sujamthe: Rand, well put! That was the conclusion me and Richard came to too!
15:06:15 Kat Ortland: but it's not really about technology, per se, it's about people
15:06:27 Kat Ortland: the Web has always been about people, it's true
15:06:41 Rand Fishkin: Richard - I think the biggest shift was awat from top-down control and towards user control of content and function
15:06:52 Kat Ortland: but the shift is away from a more corporate-empowered web environment to a more user/consumer empowered environment
15:07:03 Rand Fishkin: The web may have always been about people, but never before could users do all the things they can do now
15:07:07 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- yes, it has always been about people, and the early winners like eBay, Amazon, and Google understood that long ago and have remained true to it
15:07:11 sujamthe: I heard of Web 2.0 last fall as I noticed startup funding picking up and noticed many of the new companies were comebacks of the old, again some consumer plays funded with no b-models.
15:07:29 sujamthe: Kat, AJAX and better UI is associated with web 2.0, right?
15:07:31 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- so what can they do now that they couldn't do before? I don't see that.
15:07:36 Doug Cubell: Hi all. Doug here.
15:07:39 Matthew: web 2.0 is a terrible name for it, "second dot com boom" or "web renaissance" would be more indicative of what it actually is
15:07:48 Rand Fishkin: AJAX and the UI are absolutely parts of the trend
15:07:59 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- please explain what you mean by architecture in this context
15:08:05 Kat Ortland: sujamthe: yes, Web 2.0 has certain design and technological associations like AJAX and UI
15:08:15 Rand Fishkin: Kind of like the trend you see with how Hybrid vehicles in the automotive world have a certain "look"
15:08:32 sujamthe: Kat Did you find new technology as part of the web 2.0 companies?
15:08:38 Kat Ortland: Richard: by architecture I mean a "new" way of conducting software and business
15:08:38 Rand Fishkin: What can they do now?
15:08:59 Richard Seltzer: I get the sense that RSS, P2P etc. make some people-to-people things easier than before; but such software doesn't seem necessary for the main thrust to remain true (there's more than one way to do people-related things on the Internet)
15:09:00 Kat Ortland: I put "new" in quotes because it's not something that was just invented but rather something that has taken off
15:09:17 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- once again, what's new?
15:09:23 Rand Fishkin: The leap is really in terms of what's being offered - I could never before see other people's bookrmarks and photos (del.icio.us and Flickr)
15:09:55 Rand Fishkin: I could never before contribute to the creation of editorial content - wikipedia
15:10:07 sujamthe: Doug, we are just discussing whats web 2.0, how its different from the old web
15:10:21 Richard Seltzer: Matthew -- I agree that "Web renaissance" sounds closer to what's going on -- a return to the roots of the Internet, with a boost from new technology
15:10:34 Kat Ortland: sujamthe: we're seeing technolgies like tagging (folksonomy), open-source APIs, complete on-web AJAX applications (like word processing, etc) that we haven't seen before
15:10:37 Doug Cubell: Thanks Su. These new applications were enabled by the new technology? Could they have been developed without it?
15:10:51 Rand Fishkin: Yes - all good examples, Doug
15:10:57 sujamthe: I think theres lot of buzz, and it seems to be inflated to bring back optimism of investers and entreprenuers
15:11:05 Kat Ortland: I agree
15:11:11 Rand Fishkin: The "Web 2.0" name may not be the preferred one, but at this point, we're stuck with it
15:11:20 Vic: Is there a way to add a blog to a site, without having to use blogspot, or something similar?
15:11:28 Kat Ortland: it's a bit of a frenzy, but it's good to see optimism returning to the web business environment
15:11:28 Kat Ortland: it's a bit of a frenzy, but it's good to see optimism returning to the web business environment
15:11:31 sujamthe: But thats a nice combination - liquid money and innovation and thats where all the new technology is all cming from.
15:11:39 Rand Fishkin: As for buzz - yes, a lot of folks are seeking to capitalize on the financial side
15:11:52 Rand Fishkin: And you're right, sujamthe - it's generally a positive thing
15:11:54 Kat Ortland: I'm happy to see people inspired and creating so many new and fun ideas
15:11:57 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- There have been many efforts involving collaborative authoring. Wikipedia makes it easier and does it on a massive scale, but the concept was on the Web on day 1.
15:12:15 Kat Ortland: the great part about most Web 2.0 applications, even some of the very successful ones, is that they require very little in the way of startup capital
15:12:36 Rand Fishkin: One thing we see on the investment side that's generally different from the initial dot-com boom is that investment is at smaller, more focused levels into companies that already show technology and profit
15:12:42 Kat Ortland: so even if this is a "bubble," as some people like to say, small projects risk little in attempting to break into the market
15:12:53 Richard Seltzer: Vic -- if you have your own Web site, you can simply add free software like WordPress. If you want to use free Web space, you need to piggyback.
15:13:03 sujamthe: There does seem a attitude shift - last session we discussed about blogs, but people seem to be communicating and authoring more on the web in this new web 2.0 mode
15:13:06 Rand Fishkin: Richard - I see what you're saying and I don't disagree. It isn't that Web 2.0 is all that revolutionary, it's just a trend
15:13:11 Vic: Thank you Mr. Seltzer
15:13:48 Rand Fishkin: Albeit, one that's gotten very popular
15:13:53 Kat Ortland: That's true, sujamthe
15:13:58 sujamthe: If its a bubble, I like this bubble. People have the past to look back into to learn from mistakes and there were so many unfulfilld promises left when the last time market crashed.
15:14:15 Kat Ortland: One of the revolutionary things about Web 2.0 is the move toward "web as a platform"
15:14:23 Richard Seltzer: Kat and Su -- optimism is good; and it's good to see many new companies, business models etc. -- but once again, that's just a return to the way it was 8-10 years ago.
15:14:27 Kat Ortland: using the internet as a platform, rather than the desktop
15:14:30 Rand Fishkin: Absolutely - I find myself wishing Kozmo.com was back in business 3X a week :)
15:14:51 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- "Web as platform" was a familiar buzz word back in 1995-1997.
15:14:56 Matthew: kozmo was awesome
15:15:10 Rand Fishkin: Richard - we do have fundamental differences here, having been through both time periods, I can say that this is a very different approach
15:15:37 Rand Fishkin: "Web as a Platform" was never deliverable until AJAX and similar technologies though
15:15:38 Kat Ortland: yes, nevertheless, we are still moving toward a time where everything, I believe, will ultimately be connected by the web
15:15:46 Doug Cubell: this is the second time I've spoken about Kozmo this week. makes me crave Red Bull and Ben & Jerry's. ;-)
15:16:02 Kat Ortland: and that's what the AJAX apps are really doing well, as Rand says
15:16:11 Rand Fishkin: And bad movies delivered at 2am :)
15:16:18 Richard Seltzer: Rand, as a trend it's very good that sound principles are now considered "in". The bubble and bust happened largely because investors didn't have a clue, and forced startups to go in unnatural directions in order to win funding.
15:16:32 Rand Fishkin: Precisely
15:16:39 sujamthe: Richard, 8-10 yrs back, the web opened lot of opportunities, everyone looked at it from where they came and saw something out of it. I thik we didn't realize even 10% of that promise, the over optimism was the bad part, still rest of the promise is pendin
15:16:42 Richard Seltzer: Doug -- pardon my ignorance -- what is Kozmo?
15:17:00 Rand Fishkin: There was also a real "bubble" because investors didn't think they needed a great idea, just a good enough idea to go public or get acquired
15:17:10 Rand Fishkin: No one thought about having a profitable business model
15:17:16 Kat Ortland: is the problem then with the startups, or with the over-eager funders?
15:17:18 sujamthe: I don't mean to be so abstract, but I knoweveryone here knows what we went thru from the last round of web 1.0
15:17:36 Rand Fishkin: Now, that's largely changed, although many fear that it might return should the economic climate of irrational investment return
15:17:37 Kat Ortland: some people say the same thing about web 2.0 businesses
15:17:41 Doug Cubell: Kozmo was to 7-Eleven what Peapod or Webvan wanted to be for grocerie stores. 7x24 junk food and soap.
15:18:01 Matthew: kozmo delivered food, movies, even electronics
15:18:02 sujamthe: Now, there are lot of startups funded, again with no b-model but the hope of a merger with one of the big players, mostly google.
15:18:09 Rand Fishkin: Kozmo offered delivery of most grocery and video store items via courier
15:18:12 Richard Seltzer: If I'm hearing right, "Web 2.0" is a terminology that gives people who understand the basic strengths of the Internet a way to point out good businesses and distinguish them from foolish ones, and helps them convince investors of the importance of those p
15:18:34 Rand Fishkin: In a way, yes, but it also describes a whole set of technology and principles
15:18:38 Kat Ortland: if only it were that obvious
15:19:00 Kat Ortland: the problem is that "web 2.0" was a term coined by pundits, adopted by the people, and then pasted on businesses
15:19:07 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- I guess Kozmo never made it to the Boston area. We had half a dozen different grocery-delivery companies, all of which eventually failed (despite the logic of what they were trying to do).
15:19:08 Rand Fishkin: If I say Web 2.0, most folks know I probablt mean the "look and feel", the functionality (tagging, blogs, RSS, AJAX, APIs, Mashups, etc)
15:19:18 Kat Ortland: when businesses began calling themselves "web 2.0" without really knowing what it means, it dilutes the power of the trend
15:19:27 Rand Fishkin: along with many other things
15:19:37 Doug Cubell: I don't feel like I have a good grasp of the definition of Web. 2.0. I certainly would like to be able to recognize when 3.0 arrives. ;-)
15:19:49 Rand Fishkin: Kat - perfect - "was a term coined by pundits, adopted by the people, and then pasted on businesses"
15:19:51 sujamthe: no kozmo is boston, but we had grocery-to-go out of MIT, they even had a Hood partnership for delivery!
15:20:00 Kat Ortland: for the purpose of the Web 2.0 Awards. we defined Web 2.0 as:
15:20:28 Kat Ortland: a set of principles you may view here
15:20:32 Kat Ortland: http://web2.0awards.org/web20-zeitgeist.php
15:20:33 sujamthe: I think web 2.0 again means different things to diff people.
15:21:01 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- can you summarize what's found at that URL?
15:21:02 Kat Ortland: the most common definitions focus on user generated content and a movement of power to the user rather than big companies
15:21:06 Doug Cubell: Thanks Kat.
15:21:08 Kat Ortland: certainly
15:21:11 Richard Seltzer: what are the principles?
15:21:14 Kat Ortland: here are our points:
15:21:22 Kat Ortland: 1) User generated and/or user influenced content
15:21:35 Kat Ortland: 2) Applications that use the Web (versus the desktop) as a platform, in innovative ways
15:21:37 Richard Seltzer: Okay 1 have been around since day 1.
15:21:41 Doug Cubell: Kat, so that describe Craigslist as well as MySpace?
15:21:45 Kat Ortland: 3) Similar visual design and shared functional languages
15:21:47 sujamthe: In fact, venture capitalists take more risk than the stock market by investing in people with ideas that they believe are going to make it, so the buzz factor is to their advantage and will be there, so its not just about web 2.0
15:21:48 Rand Fishkin: http://web2.0awards.org/web20-zeitgeist.php#whatis - the top paragraph is pretty good, nice writing there, Kat
15:21:50 Richard Seltzer: 2) also has been around since day 1
15:21:56 Kat Ortland: 4) Leveraging of popular trends, including blogging, social tagging, wikis, and peer-to-peer sharing
15:22:02 Richard Seltzer: kat -- "similar" to what?
15:22:04 Rand Fishkin: sujamthe - yes, an excellent point
15:22:04 Kat Ortland: 5) Inclusion of emerging web technologies like RSS, AJAX, APIs (and accompanying mashups), Ruby on Rails and others
15:22:12 Kat Ortland: 6) Open source or sharable/editable frameworks in the form of user-oriented "create your own" APIs
15:22:40 sujamthe: Kat- Bu web 2.0 seems to have more of a content play than web 1.0 - with blogs, RSS, wikis
15:22:45 Rand Fishkin: Richard - we've seen very, very few companies leverage UGC (User-Generated-Content) until the last 2-3 years
15:22:56 Kat Ortland: at that URL http://web2.0awards.org/web20-zeitgeist.php), which is our "zeitgeist," you can find an article on the history of Web 2.0, some definitions, and interviews with folks who have varying opinions of the trend
15:22:56 Richard Seltzer: 4 sounds pretty vague. (p2p has been around for about 6 years or more, and there's not much new about blogging.
15:23:13 Kat Ortland: Doug: Yes, we think so
15:23:14 Rand Fishkin: It's not that this stuff didn't exist, it's that it wasn't part of the common "trend" or "theme" of investment-worhty businesses
15:23:34 Rand Fishkin: Richard - disagree again. Blogging may not be new, but it is finally taking off
15:23:46 Kat Ortland: In retrospect, Craigslist is probably not the best example of "web 2.0" but it still embodies a lot of the trends
15:23:47 Rand Fishkin: Blog readership is set to surpass large media readership next year
15:23:51 Doug Cubell: Interesting since CL is one of the least obviously technical sites. No AJAX there.
15:24:01 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- I saw a lot of them -- like isyndicate and other smaller syndication companies, all of which went under when everything went bust.
15:24:03 sujamthe: Rand, we should ideally take about SEO in a separte topic by itself. Do you see SEO , driven by Goog has contributed to any of the new technologies or trends or is it a overstretch?
15:24:09 Kat Ortland: indeed
15:24:25 Kat Ortland: that's why, in large part, web 2.0 is still an amorphous definition
15:24:27 sujamthe: Rand, at one point when I heard about web 2.0, it seemed to all center around Goog, hence my question
15:24:55 Rand Fishkin: Richard - precisely my point - the Internet population was not ready for these systems (or no one had done them right), now, you can make a million dollars a year off a blog - see Richard Calcanis
15:25:17 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- for me the question is why is blogging taking off? What is there about blogging that makes it so popular. (Not just lots of people publishing their ideas, which they could easily enough do with the old personal websites of Geocities, etc.
15:25:35 Kat Ortland: that's why I'd define Web 2.0 more as a business architecture trend than a technological definition
15:25:45 Rand Fishkin: It's a good question. There are a few answers, but one is that you've got a new generation online
15:25:52 Kat Ortland: many of the sites we'd call Web 2.0 don't fit into a concrete technological or design set of criteria
15:26:03 Rand Fishkin: You've also finally got broadband penetration above 60% in the US
15:26:18 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- I must admit I'm still confused. I don't know what a "business architecture" is much less in what way Web 2.0 is a business architecture.
15:26:44 sujamthe: I thinkthe 2.0 in Web 2.0 is because its a new release of the web - better way to solve the same problem but improved processes and technology
15:26:49 alexandyr: Richard - as simple as it may be, I think ease of UI is one of the largest reasons why blogs have taken off far beyond static websites
15:27:14 Rand Fishkin: It's a way of structuring your business model to profit from the increased use of your website (popularity). A model like Zillow.com is a perfect example
15:27:35 Rand Fishkin: It also contrasts well with Rich Barton's previous venture - Expedia, which was based on entirely other principles
15:27:44 sujamthe: I know of good wireless companies who did'nt make it because 802.11 was not prevelant, now entire cities are setting up wi-fi access, so those ideas will make a comeback.
15:27:50 Doug Cubell: What is Zillow's business model? I know the site.
15:27:58 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- I suspect that Web 2.0 is more intuitive than technological (or even business architecturre.) It's like "quality". You know it when you see it. And the sites/businesses that have this "quality" tend to have some characteristics in common, but do
15:28:07 Kat Ortland: it's a business model that focuses on participation, contribution, user-owned data, and so on... thereby giving the power to the end users, rather than the corporate "head"
15:28:19 Rand Fishkin: Many of the entrepreneurs see Web 2.0 as a nother chance to take a crack at fixing inefficient sectors of business by opening up the information
15:28:46 sujamthe: Ad revenues seem to be ruling this time, I'd like to know of more b-models
15:28:48 Kat Ortland: Richard: that's correct
15:29:11 Rand Fishkin: Ad models do have a lot of power, but so does "freemium" models
15:29:13 Kat Ortland: I dislike to say "I know Web 2.0 when I see it" but there's a lot of truth to it
15:29:35 Richard Seltzer: alexandyr -- I agree that it may be small technological changes bringing about large behavior changes. I suspect that it might be more useful to define "Web 2.0" or the current generation of Web-based businesses based on user behavior, rather than on arc
15:29:49 Kat Ortland: sujamthe: a lot of companies are focusing their business models around ads and paid upgrade accounts
15:30:18 sujamthe: There seem to be some businesses that integrate many data sources and offer better access to users -eg. zillow.com for real estate, zoominfo.com for peoples contacts
15:30:31 Kat Ortland: Web 2.0 is a power shift
15:30:36 Rand Fishkin: LinkedIn for business contacts
15:31:09 sujamthe: Kat, I enjoy reading thru your awards and each time I start, I seem to go into different directions and its never-ending. So, youmay have it in there, so bear with my question:
15:31:11 Rand Fishkin: It's very similar to what eBay did with auctions, but it finally has a shared language and a name
15:31:25 Kat Ortland: sure
15:31:31 Richard Seltzer: Rand --- There's a different mind-set behind widlly succressful Internet-based businesses, as opposed to tradiational businesses. Chris Locke, David Weinberger, Howard Rheingold and others were talking about these matters 10 years ago -- but back then we
15:31:37 alexandyr: but the power shift is largely there because these companies have created systems that substantially lower the barrier to entry for average users
15:31:57 Doug Cubell: LinkedIn is great. Not sure it helps with our privacy. Wonder if the SEC will use it to bolster their cases the way the police have with MySpace.
15:32:12 Kat Ortland: heh, and LiveJournal
15:32:38 sujamthe: Kat - Do you see new intermediaries evolve with web 2.0? meebo.com is in effect creating a layer on top if disparate IM systems. Any new intermediaries beyond technology integration, to create business process efficiencies?
15:32:40 alexandyr: who can now focus on generating content instead of troublshooting hypertext syntax
15:33:12 sujamthe: alexandyr: that may explain more content play now
15:33:17 Richard Seltzer: One other major change is the sheer massive number of new businesses and new approaches and the rapidity of change. It's simply impossible to keep up with it all. We having Web 2.0 awards and other lists and guides to the most interesting sites/models i
15:33:26 Kat Ortland: sujamthe: can you be a little more specific?
15:33:35 sujamthe: But theres definitely an attitude shift of people to share.
15:34:15 Rand Fishkin: A lot of investors cite two big reasons why this "Web 2.0" trend is taking off:
15:34:43 Rand Fishkin: #1 - Internet Pentration (everyone has broadband, everyone spends much more time online, etc)
15:35:10 Kat Ortland: sujamthe: I apologize, but I'm not sure what you mean by "intermediaries"
15:35:36 Doug Cubell: is Web 2.0 more transferable to the mobile world?
15:35:41 Richard Seltzer: On the other side of the coin, spam, viruses, phishing, etc. are making it every more difficult to do business on the Internet and are undermining the confidence of the general consumer.
15:35:59 Rand Fishkin: #2 - Innovation on the technology side, the marketing side and the business model side (you can make money in different ways)
15:36:03 sujamthe: I used to try my diff homepages versions earlier (somw I wish were not cached on the web, its o primitive), but withj blogs and web based apps like irows and writely, its more intuitive, I find myself thinking of hosted solutions for everything I want to
15:36:46 Richard Seltzer: Many of the interactive and content properties of "Web 2.0" were handled at one time or another in one way of another with news gropus and email. Perhaps one source of impetus in the "new" direction is the degree to which those basic applications are now
15:36:50 Rand Fishkin: Richard - I'd disagree. Despite all the problems with spam and phishing and viruses, adoption shoots up every year, as does trust of online retailers and trust of web content in general
15:37:07 Kat Ortland: hosted solutions are indeed making it easier for people to work in a mobile environment
15:37:27 Rand Fishkin: Yeah - people have certainly become more accustomed to using the web for all these processes
15:37:31 Doug Cubell: almost seems like new aps have to have a mobile story
15:37:46 Rand Fishkin: Doug - mobile may eventually be Web 3.0
15:37:50 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- the question is "adoption" of what? Of the Internet as a whole? Most people have heavy-handed filters on their mails and relatively few people now use newsgroups.
15:37:50 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- the question is "adoption" of what? Of the Internet as a whole? Most people have heavy-handed filters on their mails and relatively few people now use newsgroups.
15:37:54 sujamthe: Kat - intrmediary is like a middleman, a business that cut some layer of access to users by using the web. eg travel sites are intermediaries direct to users instead of travel agents holding all the information.
15:38:01 Kat Ortland: and with applications like jotspot, basecamp and others, you don't even have to install server-side project management or wiki software to foster corporate collaboration
15:38:27 Doug Cubell: Rand, good point. Any ap, anytime, anywhere
15:38:35 Rand Fishkin: But 85% of Americans are online weekly, and 75% daily, 50% for more than an hour each day (those could be old nu,bers now)
15:38:56 Richard Seltzer: I dont' see mobile as separate. If anything, I believe new software solutions can and should make delivery of information and interaction independent of the device on the desk or in the hand.
15:39:27 Doug Cubell: Yup, lots of sitting down. I like the idea of the PC powered by a treadmill. Want to be online? Get moving! ;-)
15:39:48 Rand Fishkin: I mean adoption as a whole - everyone is online more often and using the web for increasingly complex, secure and basic tasks (no dichotomy intended)
15:40:12 Rand Fishkin: Going to have to bail on the conversation - need lunch and I've got a conference call later on
15:40:27 Kat Ortland: take it easy, Rand
15:40:27 Rand Fishkin: Thanks for hosting, Richard! Lots of fun
15:40:39 sujamthe: Doug, theres a new startup offering we access from a threadmill for health conscious customers to make purchases based on their threadmill readings, no its not a joke, its real.
15:40:42 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- I agree that more and more people are using the Internet. I just believe that they are adopting applications like blogging and are using sites like Wikipedia in part because they can't get or can't trust the information they get through email and
15:41:15 Richard Seltzer: Rand -- thanks for joining us.
15:41:28 Doug Cubell: I had read about something like that, but not with the e-commerce angle.
15:41:58 Kat Ortland: I think trust is certainly moving more toward the average user
15:42:12 Doug Cubell: Can't leave the dating sites out of this. Lots of business there. New ones every day.
15:42:14 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- many of the good things that are made easier by new applications, have been possible (and desirable) for years, done in other ways (by hand, when automation wasn't avaialble).
15:42:46 Kat Ortland: it's the sort of school of thought that "all of us is smarter than one of us"
15:42:57 sujamthe: Most of the web 2.0 companies seem to be content and community play. ecommerce has been left out to amazon and surving old players. They too are integrating tagging and blogs for authors etc.
15:43:12 Kat Ortland: that's also at the heart of Web 2.0 and the user-empowered and open-source apps
15:43:43 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- eBay was probably the pioneer in building trust: trust based on a massive, and very effective feedback system; where users contribute to one another's reputation. Wikipedia thrives based on a similar principle -- as opposed to "brand name" and corp
15:43:54 Kat Ortland: Richard: very true. I admit that even though I know several web-based to-do list softwares, I still use paper sticky notes
15:44:01 Kat Ortland: call me a creature of habit
15:44:27 Kat Ortland: Richard: yes, Amazon is another good example of that
15:44:57 Kat Ortland: I believe those sites inspired the popularity and strength of the Web 2.0 trend
15:45:19 sujamthe: Kat - true. Open source apps have created a web-wide infrastructure for others to build more apps on top without the need for the base infrastructure. My current startup is an ecommerce storefront and I could get it up without venture money to a cash posi
15:45:19 Doug Cubell: Seems like one day everything will be tagged, priced, and available for review or sale. So much public info and it just takes the right person to grab it. Zillow is a good example. Not selling your house? Well, here's an offer anyway.
15:45:25 Richard Seltzer: Yes, Amazon too, with its user/reader evaluations and reviews; and yes, now it's blogs (which it calls "plogs" -- I have one of those and am experimenting, but so far it seems rather useless).
15:45:43 sujamthe: I mean cash flow positive state in 6 months, building on open source apps.
15:45:48 Kat Ortland: I haven't tried amazon's blogs-- what are they about?
15:46:31 Richard Seltzer: Su -- yes, content and community; and yes, reputation based on the opinions of the masses.
15:46:54 Kat Ortland: Doug: there are also a lot of Web 2.0 shopping, coupon, and comparison sites
15:47:36 Richard Seltzer: I see an opportunity for an aggregator of "feedback"/"reputation" -- combine the feedback systems of numerous small vendors and big ones like eBay to get overall ratings of individuals and businesses.
15:48:18 Kat Ortland: One of my favoite Web 2.0 blogs is Dion Hinchcliffe's Web 2.0 Blog http://web2.wsj2.com/)
15:48:47 sujamthe: Richard, isn't amazon plogs only for authors? I had heard of plogs as people's blog an open source community called plog.net to maintains a persons life journals.
15:48:55 Kat Ortland: he's a member of the Web 2.0 workgroup, a great collection of writers and bloggers with thoughts about the trend
15:49:03 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- Published authors can run "plogs" at Amazon. But so far, there's very little traffic to them -- mostly people who have already bought your books. The model is too constrained.
15:49:19 Kat Ortland: and always writes very thoughtful posts about business and technical aspects of Web 2.0
15:49:21 sujamthe: Kat - thanks, gotto check web 2.0 commerce companies.
15:49:59 Doug Cubell: based on my security background, I am concerned that one day Googling someone will be old-hat and you will be able to use tools to get a rediculous amount of information on an individuall
15:50:21 Kat Ortland: I think another base trend of Web 2.0 is a move toward increasingly social spaces
15:50:30 Kat Ortland: like Doug was saying, dating sites and MySpace and whatnot
15:50:52 Kat Ortland: it goes hand in hand with characteristic user-empowerment and user-generated content
15:50:58 sujamthe: Richard - I love the idea of chatting with an author, but restricting to book buyers doesn't seem helpful to grow it as a concept in early stages.
15:50:59 Richard Seltzer: Su -- Amazon could do a lot more with its plogs. First they could make it a lot easier for visitors to explore them and search through them. Second they could open them up for readers, instead of just limiting them to published authors. Anybody who has
15:51:26 Doug Cubell: yes, people want to work and play online. sometimes at work, sometimes at home.
15:51:34 Richard Seltzer: Su -- As of now, also, ridiculously, they don't want authors of plogs to include book reviews in their plog content.
15:52:26 Richard Seltzer: Su -- As the plogs are set up now, there is no "chatting". there's very little interaction -- few readers and very very few replies/comments.
15:52:50 Kat Ortland: Doug: that's a legitimate concern, there are now sites where you can get paid to submit other people's contact information
15:53:18 Kat Ortland: Jigsaw, for example http://www.jigsaw.com/)
15:53:26 Doug Cubell: Kat, really? That's terrible.
15:53:27 Kat Ortland: and you may not remove contact information once it's submitted
15:53:38 Richard Seltzer: I can imagine a content/information space that is aggregated by users rather than by publishers or commercial middle-companies.
15:53:40 sujamthe: Richard, it seems a nice concept, but Amazon may not value customer generated content and the ownership users take to be part of something that hosts their content.
15:54:06 Kat Ortland: Michael Arrington is a major voice in the Web 2.0 sphere and he writes about it on his blog, TechCrunch, here: http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/03/23/jigsaw-is-a-really-really-bad-idea/
15:54:25 sujamthe: We had similar discussion as I built out harcourt.com, content vs commerce discussions as though user needed content and the company needed commerce.
15:54:46 Richard Seltzer: We've seen self-aggregated content in a variety of forms from the earliest days -- at its most primitive the bookmarks/favorites lists; and applicatiosn piggybacked on that that made it easy for you to assemble your own online "daily newspaper".
15:54:52 sujamthe: Kat, I've emailed Mike and lets see if we can bring him to this blog sometime.
15:55:05 Doug Cubell: some good VC backing for Jigsaw. I guess they would say that web sites don't hurt people - people hurt people.
15:55:41 Kat Ortland: personally, I like the idea of not having to buy expensive software (such as Microsoft Office, etc) and simply having to pay for broadband in order to work and play online
15:56:34 Doug Cubell: that does seem like the future, Kat.
15:56:48 Richard Seltzer: Compbining search and blogging and tagging, people can and will basically create their own subset of the Internet, that is the content space that they want to use -- in the form and in the ways that they want to use it -- grabbing pieces of Web pages and
15:56:55 Kat Ortland: IT Redux keeps a neat list of what they call "Office 2.0" applications that enable a small business to work entirely on web-based applications
15:57:21 sujamthe: kat, agreed. I believe its just time before everything we ever want to do is hosted and we don't think of access and uploads and just be able to use things. I do believe for software but paying on-demand or by subscription seems to be way to go.
15:57:45 Kat Ortland: This is their Office 2.0 database, which features a big list of categorized products and information about them (similar to the Web 2.0 Awards but with a different bent): http://itredux.com/office-20/database/
15:57:53 Doug Cubell: I am sure Staples, AMEX Small business, etc. won't mind paying for advertising on those sites.
15:58:09 Kat Ortland: all web-based software that could be useful for an office
15:58:19 Richard Seltzer: All, we're getting close to the end of the hour. Please post your email addresses and URLs so we can keep in touch.
15:58:55 sujamthe: Kat, we had a chat about web based databases couple sessions back. we barely scratched the surface of webtops and hosted software play.
15:59:03 Kat Ortland: Thanks, Richard, I can be reached at kat@seomoz.org and you can see the Web 2.0 Awards at http://web2.0awards.org
15:59:21 Richard Seltzer: I'll post an edited version of all we've said here today at our blog and also as a static Web page. If you have followup comments and things you wanted to say but didn't have time for, please email them to me at seltzer@samizdat.com and I'll include that
15:59:44 Kat Ortland: Su - I'm pleased with hosted solutions but I think not even I feel safe leaving all my files on someone else's server :)
15:59:59 sujamthe: I know ads are hot now, but I believe theres got to be confidence in some other b-models or the entire web industry to sustain itself. Ad play of ok for large players.
16:00:19 Doug Cubell: there is sure trust element there. Pretty big one.
16:00:41 alexandyr: thanks all, very interesting, though I'm mostly a spectator in this space - email is alexs@garagegames.com if for some reason you want to get in touch with me
16:00:44 Richard Seltzer: su -- yes, I'd love to hear of business models that don't depend on ads. Users will always do whatever they can to avoid ads.
16:00:47 Kat Ortland: But even print media make a large amount of their profit from advertisers, so it is a rather traditional model
16:01:05 Richard Seltzer: You want a business model based on what people want, rather than on what they would even pay to avoid.
16:01:12 Kat Ortland: it does seem like there should be something more "evolved" for the web
16:01:32 Kat Ortland: paid accounts are another growing option, but I avoid those as well
16:01:59 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- yes in traditioanl media, readers can't avoid seeing ads on printed pages. But online, users will use popupblockers and will pay for software that eliminates other kinds of advertising.
16:02:17 Doug Cubell: I am a veteran business development and channel sales guy with experience in the Wi-Fi hardware and software and information security industries. I am currently out looking for my next job here in Boston. doug@drcweb.net. Thanks!
16:02:29 Kat Ortland: I don't mind tasteful on-page ads, but I don't think those provide as much financing
16:02:32 sujamthe: Kat -for argument sake - do we think mch about our credit card statements on our bank site? Our tax returns ging ove rthe net? We'll trust our files if the benefit is large enough and its not all controlled by one player
16:03:07 Richard Seltzer: Remember that reputation is a form of payment, a form of value -- for companies and for individuals. When reprutatin becomes generally aggregated (instead of just limited to single sites), that could become another form of "currency."
16:03:20 sujamthe: Doug, you have so much bandwidth, I dont' think yo'll find any difficulty in finding your next job, good luck :-))
16:03:37 Kat Ortland: Sujamthe: very true, but there's also something to be said for long-standing business credibility, which web 2.0 businesses often lack
16:03:43 Doug Cubell: in the same way that large companies are datamining large databases, there are better and better tools to do the same thing on the internet. Scary.
16:03:45 Doug Cubell: Thanks Su!
16:03:47 Richard Seltzer: Thanks to all for joining us today.
16:04:00 Doug Cubell: By all!
16:04:01 Richard Seltzer: And thanks to Sudha for picking this topic.
16:04:01 Kat Ortland: Thanks for inviting me, Sujamthe and Richard
16:04:08 Kat Ortland: It's a pleasure chatting with you
16:04:12 Richard Seltzer: And thanks very much to our guest speaker -- Kat.
16:04:29 sujamthe: thanks kat, wish you could come back again
16:04:35 Kat Ortland: You're welcome!
16:04:41 Kat Ortland: Let me know, I can swing by any time
16:04:47 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- you seem to have appeared at the very end. Please send me email with your related thoughts so I can include that int he transcript.
16:05:16 Alfred Thompson: Sorry I missed things. Work gets in the way. :-)
16:05:17 Richard Seltzer: All -- please send Su or me suggestiosn for future topics and speakers.
16:05:31 alexandyr: Thanks, Kat! and thanks all. Back to work for me also.
16:05:46 Kat Ortland: Please feel free, all, to also visit my work website in addition to web2.0awards.org ... it's seomoz.org and I have a profile page linked there
16:05:47 Richard Seltzer: Thanks again. (signing off and capturing the "history" of this session).
16:05:54 sujamthe: Thanks alexandyr, Bye everyone

Events Calendar - Upcoming chats

2006-05-02T07:44:00.000-07:00

We update the calendar on our web based spreadsheet on irows.com and it updates the calendar here. (Thanks Yoah of irows)

Transcript of Apr 5th chat -The Magic of Blogs Part 1

2006-04-07T12:35:00.000-07:00

The Magic of Blogs, Part 1
Edited transcript of a blog-chat session held April 5, 2006
This was the second of what we hope will be a long series of bi-weekly blog-based chat sessions on topics related to business on the Internet. Check http://iblogcom.blogspot.com/ for news about upcoming sessions and also to access the chat room.
Guest Speakers:
Brent Ashley http://www.blogchat.com/ an independent consultant and scripting specialist (author of the chat application we are using) David Sifry, http://www.technorati.com/ http://sifry.com/alerts, http://www.sifry.com/alerts/archives/000298.html. Founder and CEO of Technorati. Technorati tracks 31.1 million blogs on the web and 2.2 billion links
Hosts:
Sudha Jamthe http://coolastory.blogspot.com, mentor to startups Richard Seltzer http://www.samizdat.com/blog, http://store.yahoo.com/samizdat, blog novice, Internet old-timer, author, publisher of books on CD and DVD
Other Participants:
Kat Ortland, http://web2.0awards.org/ = speaker for our April 19 chat, Project Manager of SEOmoz.org and lead researcher of the Web 2.0 Awards Alfred Thompson, spaces.msn.com/act2 and www.acthompson.net , works for Microsoft in academic relations. Social computing is a long time personal interest of his. Nancy White, http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/onfacblog.htm long-time blogger

Major topics

Introduction

Differences betweeb blogs and static web pages

Blogs and Search

Pemalinks

Blogs and the “Promise” of the Web: Anyone Can Become a Publisher

What Technorati does and how it works

Blogs and Business Models

This Chat Application

Wrapup

Introductions
19:59:42 Richard Seltzer: All -- it looks like the magic hour has arrived to talk about the magic of blogs. Brent and Alfred, can you please introduce yourselves? and then we'll get going.
20:01:31 Brent Ashley: I'm an independent consultant and scripting specialist. I wrote this blogchat thing among other things.
20:00:35 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- as you know this is the beauteous chaos of chat -- the bits of conversation get woven around one another.
20:01:11 sujamthe: I always look forward to what the woven fabric will look like just before each chat start, love it!
20:01:12 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- that's one of the reasons I love this version of chat of yours -- the ability to save the history, then edit it and post it.
20:01:54 Richard Seltzer: When I'm doing the editing, I'm always surprised at how the pieces look when straightened out a bit...
20:00:52 Alfred Thompson: OK Intro first. I am Alfred Thompson and I work for Microsoft in academic relations. Social computing is a long time personal interest
20:02:18 Richard Seltzer: Welcome David and Kat, please introduce yourselves. We're just getting started.
20:01:29 David Sifry: Hi all. Glad to be here. I literally had to drive to a Starbucks to get online because I'm out of the office today. here's a pic of my mobile workspace: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dsifry/123853013/ :-)
20:02:25 Alfred Thompson: have to love wi=fi
20:02:59 Brent Ashley: I'm also a partner in a company that does wifi infrastructure - we have our equipmt and services in 400 McDonalds across Canada for instance
20:03:05 Kat Ortland: Hi everyone, I'm Kat Ortland, Project Manager of SEOmoz.org and lead researcher of the Web 2.0 Awards (web2.0awards.org)
20:03:54 sujamthe: Hi Kat, glad you could stop by. Richard, Kat is our guest for next session, will join us to share the magic of blogs
20:03:55 Kat Ortland: also, I'm a long-time blogger. I've been blogging since 2001: jumped on the bandwagon in college and was the only one of my friends to keep up with it
20:04:21 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- glad you are a long-time blogger. We need more of those. I'm a blog newcomer. I've been posting on the Web regularly, frequently since '94, but still don't really understand blogging.
20:05:05 David Sifry: Hi, I'm a part-time blogger, I blog at http://sifry.com/alerts. Happy to be here
20:07:18 Nancy White: Hi, I'm a blogger who started blogging to prove it was a flash in the pan and got addicted. http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/onfacblog.htm
20:09:33 sujamthe: I am mentor to startups and have one blog for entreprenuers http://coolastory.blogspot.com I am like Richard from the old web world. There are several vesions of my homepages chached on the web. I have couple blogs for past 2 yrs.

Differences between blogs and static Web pages
20:05:50 sujamthe: Richard and I are hoping to find whats the real magic of blogs, what blogs did that the old web did not?
20:08:25 Richard Seltzer: Brent and Alfred -- I'm basically trying to understand what the difference is.
19:58:52 sujamthe: Alfred, maybe you can share your comments from MS blogger Robert Scoble
19:59:35 Alfred Thompson: ok. Robert sent me a list of 5 differences he saw between blogs and regular static web pages. Robert's points are: 1) It's easier to publish. 2) It's discoverable (you don't need to tell AltaVista you exist 3) It's conversational. I know almost instantly when you link to me. 4) It's viral. Every post has a permalink. 5) It's syndicatable. Connectors can read hundreds of sites
20:06:48 David Sifry: the difference is the TOOLS
20:06:58 sujamthe: Brent, you wrote blogchat, do you see these 5 as differences really?
20:06:57 Brent Ashley: I agree with Scoble's points. The blogging tools that are available now make it much easier to blog than to maintain static pages. I use Wordpress - it installed in minutes and is configurable out the wazoo
20:05:44 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- I'm still mystified by blogging. 1) For me, it's far easier to post simple text static html Web pages. 2) -- in what way are blogs more findable than ordinary Web pages? I don't need to tell Google that my ordinary Web pages exist. Google crawls my site daily. 3) I was getting the same effect 10-12 years ago, simply quickly posting email responses to pages I posted. 4 What's a "permalink"? And what's viral about it? 5 -- How does the RSS stuff work? Do I have to do something to turn that on for my blog?
20:06:42 Alfred Thompson: Richard, to be honest I'm not sure I buy that one (2). It does seem as though search engines weight blogs heavily but I'm not sure why Permalinks (4) is another one I am not sure I buy. Sites like Richard's (and mine) have links that are as "perm" as ny blog post.
20:44:33 Alfred Thompson: RSS is a light weight way to get at the content. Think about it as reading web pages using an email program or a USENET reader. The content seems to come to you. with a web page you go to the content
20:17:33 Richard Seltzer: The difference seems to be more social than technological. People build habits of frequently returning to a particular blog and of frequently updating their own blogs. But that frequency was the way the Web was to begin with before it became overlaiden with graphics and fancy effects.
20:29:45 Brent Ashley: I sat on a Web 2.0 panel at a conference last week, and it's true, the social aspects are more important that the technological advances.
20:30:19 Brent Ashley: Here's a permalink to the blog post I made about the sociological web: http://www.ashleyit.com/blogs/brentashley/?p=586
20:30:31 Kat Ortland: Brent - I agree about the social aspects, and I'd add (for the most part) design to that
20:30:50 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- That's a neat term "sociological web". Please elaborate.
20:08:30 Brent Ashley: The thing blogging does for me is that it allows me to maintain an online reputation. The two-way nature of the net as it is becoming allows each of us to build and maintain a global reputation where transparency is an asset

Blogs and Search
20:09:20 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- Simple text-heavy Web pages are also very search friendly. What's the difference?
20:08:46 Kat Ortland: Alfred - blogs are search friendly... not necessarily weighted heavier
20:08:50 Richard Seltzer: I'm used to posting simple text-heavy, no-graphics Web pages -- which is actually easier than posting to a blog.
20:09:30 Kat Ortland: they're easily spiderable, they classify themselves, they're frequently updated, they link out a lot and get many links in return. Blog templates often do a lot of things right as far as search engines are concerned, while your basic html webpage might not. On the other hand, there are basic HTML webpages that do those things right, but most blog templates are better designed from the get-go
20:11:59 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- I never used templates for Web pages. Still just use Netscape Composer -- ultimately simple.
20:12:12 sujamthe: Kat: You are the SEO expert. Do search engines like blogs better? Or are blogs really linked to more pages making their rank go up?
20:12:56 Kat Ortland: Sudjamthe- Search engines don't "like" blogs better, necessarily, they're just set up better for search engine access. Links certainly help, yes
20:13:47 Richard Seltzer: I'm under the impression that blogs are easy to find because Google has gone out of its way to find and index them. I started my own blog (using WordPress) about a month ago, and the traffic to my site has gone up about 25%. 20:15:06 Richard Seltzer: Thanks to that increased traffic, I now have to pay my Web host nearly double
20:14:58 Kat Ortland: Richard - I'm not sure it's that Google goes out of its way, I think they're just easy to find because of the way content is presented.
20:38:11 Nancy White: There is something too, about how blogs help us find each other. It is not quite community building, but a part of community building.
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Permalinks
20:16:21 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- I still don't understand what a permalink is. Please help.
20:09:14 Nancy White: Permalink value is that there is a direct link to a specific BIT of a page, rather than just the page. Makes discoverability a little more granular, no?
20:10:07 Richard Seltzer: Nancy -- Can you please clarify? I thought that you could only link to a specific item in a blog. Can you link to a piece of an item?
20:10:35 Nancy White: I don't know why, but adding blogs to a site can cause it to go way up in search engines. We had this happen when we added blogs to an online community, brain fart http://www.shareyourstory.org. HUGE increase in SE generated hits. 100X
20:11:04 Nancy White: Permalink is to a blog post, rather than a whole set of posts (though you can link to a set too). So it is granular - to a point! :-)
20:10:04 Alfred Thompson: granularity is important. Those of us who have used HTML for a while have coded more graualar links in our pages.
20:10:49 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- Sorry, I'm a bit illiterate... What do you mean by granularity? Is that something I can add to my blog? Or does it happen automatically?
20:11:37 Nancy White: granularity: ability to zoom in to a particular level. More granualirty means going down to a finer, more specific level.
20:12:35 Richard Seltzer: Nancy -- Sorry, I don't know what you mean by "level" or how one implements what you are referring to. Please explain for a beginner. Thanks.
20:14:11 Nancy White: First, Richard, by level I'll give an example. If I link to your web page, it goes to everything on it. Top level. But if I could link to a specific paragraph (which you can do in an HTML web page, but we don't often do it) I can link right to that specific level. Viral - easy to pass along with specific pointer and hopefully relevance
20:16:52 Richard Seltzer: Nancy -- Can't I just include a URL in an email? Can't I just add a URL to my Favorites?
20:17:32 Nancy White: Richard, yes you can. But consider a cook book. You could point me to a cook book and say there is a great chocolate cake recipe in it. Or you could point me to the recipe directly.
20:18:02 Nancy White: Permalinks allow pointing to the more precise place. Anchor links (I think that is the term) do the same thing.
20:19:17 Richard Seltzer: Nancy -- How do I put "anchor links" in a blog posting?
20:20:53 Nancy White: Richard, you don't have to. That's the easy part Dave mentioned. The software does it FOR you.
20:21:57 Richard Seltzer: Nancy -- But what do I have to do? How can I access a piece of a blog posting? And who can I make a blog posting accessible that way?
20:22:55 Nancy White: Richard, look at this page on your site: http://www.samizdat.com/bootcamp8.html If there were links directly to each subheading, then you can point to specific pieces. Now I'm NOT saying you would want to publish this via blog software. You could, but the point is the blog software puts in those links automatically.
20:24:42 Alfred Thompson: granularity is important. Those of us who have used HTML for a while have coded more graualar links in our pages.

Blogs and the "Promise" of the Web: Anyone Can Become a Publisher
20:16:34 David Sifry: so you guys want to know the difference between a blog and a web page? fundamentally they are the same.
20:17:17 Richard Seltzer: David -- That's my sense -- that they are pretty much the same (except for RSS, which I don't understand).
David Sifry: the KEY difference is the ease of the tools to turn anyone into a publisher. Back in 1996 I jumped into Geocities and then learned that I had to buy a book on HTML to learn how to make a web page. and then learn what FTP was. and then learn what SSH was. and so on and so on
20:17:33 sujamthe: David: So the web grew and tools evolved to make blogs?
20:20:21 Richard Seltzer: David -- Netscape Composer (10 years old) is simple and intuitive. You don't need to learn html or the rest.
20:20:35 Kat Ortland: true, when I wanted to make a geocities webpage back in 1997, I had to teach myself HTML or purchase an expensive program like Dreamweaver
20:21:19 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- I never learned any of that stuff. And stayed away from the templates. Keep it simple and it's easy.
20:21:51 David Sifry: Richard, congratulations, you are in the top 1% of the 1%. Blog tools aren't for you, you've got a process that works for you
20:21:24 sujamthe: I think with blog software, you don't stop to think about pages and can just focus on the content.
20:18:18 David Sifry: The key difference in 2006 from 1996 is that now the tools to make anyone a publisher are easy, free, and as easy to use as writing an email. and as a result, one of the original promises of the web - that anyone can be a publisher, has been fulfilled for a MUCH larger group of people. The additional cool thing from my point of view is that because we are now all using TOOLLS to create web pages (our blogs) those tools can also create metadata AUTOMATICALLY as the exhaust of the publishing process, like RSS; also, something called an XML-RPC ping, which is fundamentally a notification process built into all the major blog CMSes. The nice thing about using a standardized CMS is that all these other nice things get built into the TOOL to allow an ecosystem to grow up around it http://www.flickr.com/photos/dsifry/123853013/
20:21:50 Nancy White: ::nodding in agreement... until you want to get geeky. Then it gets complicated FAST! ::
20:19:47 sujamthe: Richard: I agree with David - Blogs bring the promise of the web, anyone can be a publisher.
20:21:35 Kat Ortland: blogs are viral and easily marketable: setting one up requires no thinking. you don't have to worry about having your own webdomain or ftp service.
20:22:57 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- That's a good point -- not needing your own webdomain. (I've come to take my domain for granted).
20:23:49 Kat Ortland: Richard - I certainly prefer my own as it adds to authority, in my opinion, but it's nice not to have to pay for it, or host it, or anything like that
20:27:06 Richard Seltzer: It feels like this is mostly a return to the roots of the Internet -- lots of text, and interaction, and lively interchange.
20:28:41 Alfred Thompson: Richard it is a return to the early days of the webwith one exception. When you and I started 10+ years ago only the geeks could publish. You had to know HTML and you had to have access to a node on the Internet which was hard to come by.
20:28:47 Richard Seltzer: Gradually, I'm getting some sense of the difference. Search, no need to have a domain to post, and RSS.
Alfred Thompson: Now everyone can publish and access to a place is free and easy.
20:29:47 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- Sometimes I forget that I was spoiled, working at Digital. It was easy in early 94 to post inside Digital, with no fancy publishing tools.
20:32:05 Alfred Thompson: Digital almost was the Internet back 12 years ago or so
20:31:51 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- I have my blog (Blogging about Books) set up at my Web site, with a Web host. so I haven't yet had the experience of creating a blog in public free space. Do you see differences?
20:33:57 Alfred Thompson: I have several blogs. Two on different free sites, one on a company hosted site and one on a site hosted by a student I know. All are a little bit different but it is mostly in the details.

RSS
20:17:56 Brent Ashley: RSS is a presentation-free structured summary of your content
20:18:52 Alfred Thompson: RSS is a light weight way to get at the content. Think about it as reading web pages using an email program or a USENET reader. The content seems to come to you.
20:18:58 Brent Ashley: RSS is to blogs as UPI or reuters is to newspapers

CSS
20:24:00 Brent Ashley: my blog looks just like Richard's today because it's CSS Naked Day
20:24:30 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- I really am blog illiterate -- what is CSS?
20:25:08 Nancy White: CSS: Cascading Style Sheets. Language used to describe how an HTML document should be formatted. www.orafaq.com/glossary/faqglosc.htm
20:26:24 Brent Ashley: CSS is Cascading Style Sheets. My blog as you see it today is displayed as basic content. By applying stylesheets, I can make it look different without affecting the meat. example to follow
20:26:58 Kat Ortland: CSS allows a good degree of design flexibility: see http://www.cssbeauty.com
20:27:36 Brent Ashley: go to http://csszengarden.com and select some styles from the list on the right - the content remains the same but the site's presentation changes drastically
20:28:32 Kat Ortland: Richard- Also, You can control general aspects of a page's design with one style sheet, so it makes updating sites easier, especially when making large overall changes
20:37:55 Brent Ashley: richard - if you visit my blog again, you'll see it with full style
20:38:39 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- I will check. Thanks again. I've got a lot of homework ahead of me.

What Technorati does and how it works
20:22:56 David Sifry: for example the median time from when someone posts to their blog towhen it shows up in the Technorati index is under 5 minutes from the post. Engines like Technorati fundamentally understand TIME. Google, as much as I love them and use them every day, doesn't understand when a document was published or updated. That means a whole new set of more "conversational" applications are possible. That means that you can do things like understand what a group of people are talking about at a given time like this: http://technorati.com/pop/
20:25:07 Richard Seltzer: David -- Please help a beginner like me -- What is Technorati? In what way does it understand time?
20:25:36 David Sifry: Richard, to grossly oversimplify, you can think of Technorati as a search engine for blogs but we do a LOT more than that. 20:26:06 David Sifry: to be perfectly frank, the interesting thing isn't just blogging. Blogs are a symptom of somthing much bigger happening on the Internet.
20:26:24 Richard Seltzer: David -- Please tell me more. What more do you do? And what is the bigger thing blogs are a symptom of? It is about the growth of the end user picking up tools and becoming producers, not just consumers.
20:26:43 sujamthe: David: I think of Technorati as a google for blogs, but you know the pulse of the blog world. How?
20:27:04 David Sifry: sujamthe, it is based in how blogging tools are constructed. Google fundamentally works because it goes out and crawls the web brings it all back inhouse, 20 billion documents or so and then tries to make sense of it.
20:27:58 Richard Seltzer: David -- if you don't crawl the Web, how do you find blog postings?
20:28:10 David Sifry: Richard, ah, that's the trick, and that's why the tools are SOOOOO important. Built into these blogging tools is something called a ping, which means the tool notifies services like Technorati that a blog has just been updated. If you're an engineer, it is the fundamental difference between being polling-based and event-based, which means that we can go out and index your blog almost instantaneously, which also means we understand WHEN things happened, down to the second, as opposed to Google or Yahoo, which are polling-based.
20:30:26 Richard Seltzer: David -- Please explain "event-based". How are you aware that an "event" is taking place?
20:30:53 David Sifry: Richard, the notification (the XML-RPC ping) is built into the blog publishing tool. Basically, they send us a little message every time you post or update your blog (as long as your blog isn't private, of course). Think of it this way as an author, you want to be indexed into search engines quickly, right? So we created a "high-priority" indexer hat will immediately index your blog if you tell us you've updated
20:32:33 Richard Seltzer: David -- How can I check to see if my blog is sending you those signals? And if it isn't, what can I do about that?
20:32:44 David Sifry: http://technorati.com/ping
20:32:47 Brent Ashley: Whenever I make a blog entry, my blog software tells technorati about that event.
20:33:05 David Sifry: you can even do it manually if you aren't using a blog-posting tool
20:33:18 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- What did you have to do to set up to notify Technorati?
20:33:32 David Sifry: Richard, the instructions are all on that page
20:33:44 Richard Seltzer: David -- I'm using WordPress. Does that software have that capability built in? And how would I do it "manually"?
20:34:05 David Sifry: Richard: yes, it is built into wordpress
20:33:55 Brent Ashley: Wordpress does it automatically. I don't think I had to check the box by default
20:33:56 David Sifry: you can do it by simply sending an HTTP GET to that page with your blog in the URL
20:34:04 Richard Seltzer: David -- which page?
20:34:10 sujamthe: Brent, thanks for sharing the web 2.0 panel about sociological web. In fact, Cluetrain Manifesto folks in this chat (in its earlier version as web chat) almost 10 yr back.
20:34:14 David Sifry: Richard http://technorati.com/ping As long as your blog is a "public" blog, Wordpress should automatically notify us whenever you post. Richard, what is the URL for your blog?
20:35:45 Richard Seltzer: David My blog is at http://www.samizdat.com/blog Can you tell if Technorati knows of its existence?
20:36:57 David Sifry: Richard, oh yes, you're in!
20:37:34 Richard Seltzer: David -- Good. That may be partly why I'm getting lots of additional traffic, after only blogging for about a month.
20:35:12 Alfred Thompson: Richard you will want to create an account at Technorati and "claim" your blog. That will let you get information about it more easily.
20:36:59 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- I will certainly check Technorati. Is there a charge for "claiming" a blog? And what does that mean?
20:37:08 David Sifry: Richard, no charge! It is a way of getting better publicity for your blog. For example, when you claim your blog, you can get your picture to show up next to all search results that mention your blog
20:37:12 sujamthe: Richard, you can type your blog on technorati and can see the results.
20:51:47 Brent Ashley: I concur with that, Richard. The more you link and are linked to, the stronger your web presence becomes, and technorati is a part of that
20:51:56 David Sifry: Richard, I make you no guarantees about the projected increase in traffic but that's definitely what we're seeing in the past, yes
20:52:17 Richard Seltzer: Google links and ranking have revenue implications (for advertising). But I don't think that is the case yet for Technorati. (Please prove me wrong :-)
20:52:40 David Sifry: Richard, YOU prove you wrong! :-) Check your referers. Also do you want to know who is linking to you or talking about you?
20:53:39 Richard Seltzer: David -- What I mean is I have advertisers at my site who pay at a rate based on my "6" ranking at Google. If I go up to 7 or 8, I get more money, automatically.
20:54:02 David Sifry: Good for you, Richard! http://technorati.com/search/http%3A//www.samizdat.com/
20:54:27 Richard Seltzer: David -- do you mean check "referers" in Web stats? That's often indecipherable. How do you suggest finding out who is linking to me and talking about me? In the days of AltaVista, there were some simple commands to find out all of that (albeit in an index that was a bit stale).
20:54:32 David Sifry: you can see Alfred's link 14 hours ago! Use Technorati. Then put your blog (or really, any!) URL into Technorati to see who is talking about it, in real-time. Think of it as live backlinks or another way of looking at it is thinking about the web as a conversation, with links being a new form of social gesture,a "tap on the shoulder" so to speak
20:55:36 Richard Seltzer: David -- clearly I have to spend some time at Technorati checking out what you have to offer. I can imagine links being a form of social gesture. I just need to learn the right way to do it (both socially and technically).
20:56:34 David Sifry: Richard, we've got some great FAQs and a whole bunch of our users have contributed awesome documentation
20:56:39 sujamthe: David, Richard, I tested by adding that WaPo article to this blog.

Blogs and business models?
20:38:16 sujamthe: You have 31 million blogs on technorati, all free, now where do you make money?
20:39:24 Alfred Thompson: Technorati doesn't have 31 million blogs. It indexes blogs that are elsewhere
20:38:32 David Sifry: sujamthe, we make money from advertising on the site, and also via syndication relationships with mainstream media, like Newsweek, The Washington Post, The IHT, Nation Magazine, etc
20:39:28 Richard Seltzer: David -- Do you do any tiered syndication, so blogs that you connect to can share in some revenue :-)
20:40:06 sujamthe: I didn't realize the syndication part. How does it work? I am aware of a content site syndicating content. I am curious to find if its just content syndication made easy with blogs or are there any new b-models around content with blogs?
20:40:07 Alfred Thompson: publishing to a blog is generally as easy as filling out a form and hitting send. More like sending an email than editing a web page.
20:40:12 David Sifry: Richard, great question. We don't currently share sndication revenue, but what we do is send lots of traffic to the blogs. We only syndicate excerpts
20:41:25 Alfred Thompson: For most people getting the traffic is almost as good as sending money.
20:41:28 sujamthe: So the receiving blogs can have their own b-models based on traffic.
20:41:52 David Sifry: We very much want to help get more traffic to bloggers
20:42:12 David Sifry: and it is pretty nice to know that if you like to a Washington Post article and comment on it that the WaPo will linkback to you
20:42:17 Richard Seltzer: In the old days, even if you were well-known and well-linked to, and even if the search engines did a good job of updating their indexes, it could take a few days, a week, even months for your new content to become findable.
20:43:16 sujamthe: Richard, that was dependent purely on Altavista.
20:42:26 David Sifry: Richard: YES! Now make that a few MINUTES
20:43:29 Brent Ashley: short / medium / longterm memory == technorati / google / wayback-machine
20:58:25 sujamthe: David, I had thought technorati was more like google, because of the ranking by more people linking to us. The real-time aspect is mind-boggling.
20:42:42 sujamthe: David, do you have an example of a famous blog you syndicate out to other sites who makes money mainly from your traffic.
20:44:26 Richard Seltzer: David -- how does it happen that your commenting on a Washington Post article leads to an "automatic" link back to you? What do you need to do to make that happen?
20:43:14 David Sifry: let me show you what we do For example, go here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040400513.html Scroll down about halfway down the article page. You'll see a box that says, "Who's blogging?" Richard, all you have to do is link to that article, and we do the restHere's the details page on the WaPo site: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040400513_Technorati.html
20:47:29 David Sifry: Richard: All you have to do is post something that also links to that article in your blog and then technorati indexes it, and then it shows up on the WaPo!
20:46:27 Richard Seltzer: David -- I'm confused -- what do you mean that all I have to do is link to that article? do you mean link to it in a posting in my blog? Couldn't I do that anyway, even if I didn't post a comment there?
20:48:08 David Sifry: Richard: nope. Not unless you also ping us. Otherwise we have no idea you updated your site.
20:48:47 sujamthe: David, so bloggers link to a Wapo article, and you track their linking as update to their blogs. So thats real-time web, deadly!
20:49:44 David Sifry: exactamundo :-)
20:49:03 Richard Seltzer: David -- How do I "ping" Technorati?
20:57:09 David Sifry: General help: http://technorati.com/help/
20:50:19 Richard Seltzer: David -- If I understand this right, if I were to post lots of items at my blog, linking to other popular blogs, and were to ping Technorati to make sure you know I have, that could significantly impact my traffic. and once Google catches up (probably in about a day), Google may well revise my "ranking" because of those links??? (Or is it only Technorati that will interpret what I've done as links from places like the Washington Post to my blog?
20:40:35 Richard Seltzer: Gradually I'm getting a sense that what we have here is a difference in quantity leading, unexpectedly, to a difference in quality -- to a sea change of sorts
20:40:57 David Sifry: Richard, yes I think so. Also don't forget that it is largely about a difference in PLATFORM that allows all this stuff to exist.
20:41:09 Richard Seltzer: Yes, the content isn't much different from ordinary pages on the early Web. But the fact that the postings are almost immediately findable changes the social dynamics.
20:59:25 sujamthe: David, beyond simple content syndication, I see lots of possibilities built on real-time access to worldwide info.
sujamthe: David, I am curious, what technorati's b-model?
21:00:16 Richard Seltzer: David -- Do you know of new revenue models based on blogs?
21:00:52 David Sifry: Richard, that's a HUGE question, way too much to discuss in this forum right now. There's a LOT in the blogosphere about it
21:01:27 Richard Seltzer: Maybe blogs and revenue would be a good future topic.
21:01:59 David Sifry: I don't know if there are any fundamentally new business models, but I think that blogging and real-time information understanding and indexing is an enabler of a enormous set of existing biz models
21:02:00 sujamthe: I'll have to find experts who are making money off blogs! who are they?
21:02:14 Brent Ashley: it ain't me!
21:02:32 David Sifry: sujamthe: That's like asking to find people who are making money off of the telephone
21:02:58 Brent Ashley: you're right, David. there's no direct ROI, it's all about improving your chances at succeeding
21:04:01 Richard Seltzer: David -- but there are revenue models directly related to the telephone, such as telemarketing and customer support. Are there similar niches that make sense for blogs?
21:04:02 David Sifry: There are so many green field opportunities here. But fundamentally, it is still about the core promise of the web in 1992: Giving the power to publish to anyone
21:04:47 Richard Seltzer: David -- Amen.
21:03:10 sujamthe: David, I am so excited about the implications for so many existing businesses, I'll follow up with you more on this later. You've created something truly innovative with the real-time access thing.
20:59:24 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- considering the pace of a conversation like this, and the volume of info transmitted, do you know of instances of an application like this being used for education?
21:00:30 Alfred Thompson: Richard, I know that some distance learning programs use Chat but I don't know much about how or what tools they use. Education is behind in a lot of ways.

This chat application
20:03:08 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- do you know of others who are using your software the way we are? saving and editing and posting the history?
20:04:03 Brent Ashley: Pat Delaney, a bay area education expert has been for years, as has Peter Ford, and educator in the UK. The edublogging community has used blogchat fairly heavily off and on since 2002
20:41:20 Nancy White: Brent, can you say more about this app? Can you pull transcripts easily? (it was easy to use)
20:41:45 Brent Ashley: There is a host side to the app that is slightly different to the visitor side. You can get history from there and you can see who is on and more about them. you can kick off miscreants, too
20:42:02 sujamthe: Getting the transcript for this chat is not going to be easy for Richard.
20:44:46 Brent Ashley: you see people's ip addresses in user-agent strings when they arrive. You also have a history button where mere visitors do not
20:45:25 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- yes, I forget that I'm "privileged" as the "host". That I can see some stuff that others don't (like the ability to save the "history".
20:46:26 Brent Ashley: you can use your browser save..as functionality to save it as html so you can cut and paste with colour. When you use the history window, you can change the number of hours of history by modifying the url where it says h=2
20:47:44 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- saving as html creates huge problems for me in trying to edit. Maybe I'm missing something. It find it far easier to save as text and paste it into Netscape Composer.
20:48:06 Brent Ashley: you can do that, yes
20:24:06 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- Do you have some good "community" examples, using your software?
20:25:13 Brent Ashley: http://www.bayareawritingproject.org/
20:26:01 Richard Seltzer: Thanks for all the examples. I'll check them out when I'm going over the "history" of this and getting it ready for posting.
20:59:49 Richard Seltzer: Brent -- I meant to ask before -- what's the limit of this app in terms of simultaneous chatters?
21:00:49 Brent Ashley: I haven't reached a limit yet. We're watching cpu here and it's insignificant. so the limit is more due to handlling so many people typing and following the conversation.
21:01:20 sujamthe: I researched a lot before I found blogchat, its the only blog based chat.
21:04:31 sujamthe: Thanks Brent, for coming, your comments and for blogchat
21:04:51 Brent Ashley: you're welcome. it's been running without a hitch since 2002

Wrapup
20:35:14 Kat Ortland: well, folks, thanks for inviting me today... I must be off to my lunch date. I'll see you next week
20:36:10 Richard Seltzer: Kat -- take a laptop, and reconnect over lunch :-)
20:36:37 Kat Ortland: I wish I could! I'm not sure there's wireless and the others might feel neglected ;)
20:36:38 sujamthe: Richard, talk of social implications!
20:36:53 Kat Ortland: in any case, enjoy the chat and I'll see you soon :)
20:35:14 Richard Seltzer: This is a quick education... 30 minutes and I might not have gotten as much information in a book.
20:57:03 Richard Seltzer: All -- I've learned a lot in this hour, and will probably learn a lot more trying to straighten out the transcript. I hope to post it tormorrow. Please post your emails here before you disappear, so we can stay in touch.
20:58:02 David Sifry: Blogging Basics: http://technorati.com/help/blogging101.html
20:58:02 Brent Ashley: brent@ashleyit.com
20:58:06 Richard Seltzer: All -- It feels to me like this topic has a lot more too it. Would you like to revisit it sometime soon? seltzer@samizdat.com
20:58:34 Alfred Thompson: act2@acthompson.net
20:58:55 Alfred Thompson: Technorati is also fun.
20:59:11 David Sifry: Alfred, Thanks!!!
20:59:31 David Sifry: dsifry@technorati.com
20:59:40 David Sifry: sujamthe, yes!
20:59:49 David Sifry: Me too!!! :-)
21:00:51 Richard Seltzer: All -- thanks very much for all the info and the lively discussion. I really would like to continue this sometime soon (after I've done my homework).
21:02:08 Alfred Thompson: Richard it is a return to the early days of the web with one exception. When you and I started 10+ years ago only the geeks could publish. You had to know HTML and you had to have access to a node on the Internet which was hard to come by.
21:03:07 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- yes, indeed. It's great that so many people can be involved today. (And it's high time I really learned how to blog...)
21:02:15 Richard Seltzer: Thanks again. I'll email the URL for the edited transcript and will also post it as a comment to the chat announcement at this blog.
21:04:25 Nancy White: email for the transcript link please - nancyw@fullcirc.com
21:04:45 sujamthe: Transcript will also be posted on this blog.
21:04:55 Richard Seltzer: Thanks again to all.
21:04:56 sujamthe: You can come and post any new thoughts later.
21:04:56 David Sifry: My pleasure, thanks for having me
21:05:23 Brent Ashley: Nancy, your blogchat req is being filled
21:05:24 Richard Seltzer: Or, if you like, you could send me followup thought by email for inclusion with the transcript. seltzer@samizdat.com
21:05:34 Nancy White: Thanks, Brent!
21:05:39 sujamthe: See you all next session Apr 19th same time.
21:05:47 Nancy White: Thanks
21:05:54 Brent Ashley: see you then. thanks, folks.
21:06:23 sujamthe: Bye everybody, thanks for coming.

Blogging resources- Technonati and Feedburner how they offer real time blog content

2006-04-05T20:44:00.000-07:00

In today blogcom chat session, Technorati CEO David Sifry mentioned how Technorati shows blogs updated in real time as opposed to Google.

There was a brief mention about XML RPC ping. I found this great resource that explains this and compares with feedburner (which was my next question logically).

Blogging resources [Archive] - StatCounter Free Invisible Web Tracker and Counter: "Technorati"

blogcom blog chat testing for David Sifry

2006-04-05T12:54:00.000-07:00

I am testing David Sifry's test ase fromblogchat right now,

linking to the washington post article
DeLay Departing on Own Terms

Apr 19th - Web 2.0 blogcom chat at noon PDT 3pm EDT

2006-04-04T09:30:00.000-07:00

When: Apr 19th noon PDT
Where: Here, click on the diamond on right and join the chat.
Topic: We'll begin our discussion on web 2.0
Invited Guest: Kat Ortland of web 2.0 awards. Check her list of 300 web 2.0 companies, and interviews of founders. Inspiring work among all the clutter of web 2.0 we see everywhere.

Lets chat with Kat and explore further.

Richard and I were trying to wrap our hands around what is Web 2.0 and found lot of previous web 1.0 companies are making a comeback as web 2.0. Love Tim O Reilly's beautiful article on "What is Web 2.0"

Thanks to Bob Stumpel of openbc (openbc looks like linkedin from germany but organized to offer some real services for users) for his extensive list of All Things Web 2.0 - "THE LIST"

Now lets get ready to explore this further beyond defintions to whats cool? Is this bunch of new technologies, if so what is cool and what are some evolving b-models among them?

Transcript of Chat Mar 22 2006 - Who needs a desktop

2006-03-28T14:36:00.000-08:00

Who needs a desktop? Part 1 -- Web-based applications
Edited transcript of a blog-chat session held March 22, 2006 on Blogcom here at http://iblogcom.blogspot.com

Participants
Raju Vegesna, invited speaker from from Adventnet, makers of the Zoho suite of AJAX Web Applications
Yoah Bar-David, invited speaker, co-founder of irows.com
Alfred Thompson from Microsoft
Doug Cubell, Boston-based tech sales
John Lin, from Adobe, business development/product marketing in the Platform Business Unit
Richard Seltzer, co-moderator, seltzer at samizdat dot com
Sudha Jamthe, co-moderator, sujamthe at yahoo dot com

Major topics covered

Introductions

What do we mean by web-based applications

Interoperability of desktop applications and their web-based equivalents

Revenue model and long-term implications of web-based applications

Storing documents on the Web

Adobe

Google, Writely, and "Webtops"

Wireless and "streaming data"

Microsoft

Collaboration and social computing

Security, reliability, and standards Issues

Direction of software development

Targeted advertising as a possible souce of revenue

Wrapup

Introductions
Richard Seltzer: Welcome Raju, please introduce yourself.
20:01:02 Raju Vegesna: I am Raju Vegesna, Architect @ Zoho.
20:01:21 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Alfred Thompson and John Lin, Please introduce yourselves, we're just getting started.
20:02:01 Alfred Thompson: I am Alfred Thompson with Microsoft and a long time observer of social computing
20:02:37 John Lin: I am John Lin with Adobe
20:04:23 Richard Seltzer: John Lin -- what do you do at Adobe? And is Adobe involved in Web-based applications?
20:04:56 John Lin: I am in business development/product marketing in the Platform Business Unit (PDF, Flash)
20:02:19 Richard Seltzer: Wecome Doug Cubell, please introduce yourself. We're just starting.
20:03:46 Doug Cubell: Oh, hi, I am Doug Cubell. I am a Boston-based tech sales guy, mostly bizdev and channels for infosec and wireless
20:10:27 Yoah Bar-David: Hello, this is Yoah Bar-David from iRows. Sorry for being late, but we had a power outage.
20:10:44 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Yoah, glad you could make it. We just getting started. I've been asking Raju some very basic questions about web-based apps.
20:11:23 sujamthe: Richard, Yoah is the founder of irows, webbased AJAX spreadsheets.
(image placeholder)
What do we mean by web-based applications?
20:03:39 Richard Seltzer: Raju, please explain. Presume I'm a total novice (which when it comes to Web-applications is true). What applications are you talking about? How do they relate to the standard Microsoft Office applications? How does one access the Web-based version and where does one store the documents?
20:04:33 Raju Vegesna: We provide productivity enabling applications like webbased word processor (Zoho Writer), Spread sheet application (Zoho Sheet), a complete collaboration product (Zoho Virtual Office), Daily planner (Zoho Planner), CRM (Zoho CRM) etc.
20:05:08 sujamthe: Raju, Raju, are all of them Web based AJAX Applications?
20:05:26 Raju Vegesna: Yes, all of them are AJAX Apps
20:05:29 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- I'm still lost. What is the relationship between your word processor and Microsoft Word? And likewise you apps and the Microsoft apps? We really need to start at a base level. What is an AJAX app?
20:06:02 Raju Vegesna: We provide a completely web apps. MS apps are installable in a computer while our apps run ona server. People can access our applications from their browser and they dont need to install it on the machine they are working on

Interoperability of desktop applications and their Web-based equivalents
20:06:55 sujamthe: Raju, are zoho apps compatable with MS apps? For example, can I take my existing Excel sheet and upload it into Zohosheet?
20:06:56 Raju Vegesna: The aim is to provide a location/machine/OS/Browser independent office environment for individuals and businesses which enables collaboration and productivity.
20:07:02 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- If I create a document in Word, can I open it/share it with your word processor? If I create a document with your word processor, can I open it, edit it etc. with Word on my desktop? Are these apps compatible?
20:07:21 Raju Vegesna: Yes, You can take an excel sheet and import it into Zoho Sheet and do it vice versa. You can do the same for Zoho Writer too which works with MS word docs Yes, you can create a doc in Zoho Writer and export it in Word format and use it on your desktop

Revenue model and long-term implications of web-based applications
20:06:47 Doug Cubell: these web-based apps are really getting exciting! One day we will all just have web-terminals.
20:14:47 sujamthe: I am an enterprenuer, was co-founder of Coola, a mobile server platform. I love the idea of disengaging from the desktop totally.
20:16:39 John Lin: where the network is the computer. From a business model standpoint, I am interested to hear how web hosted apps what the revenue model is...
20:18:32 Richard Seltzer: John -- I agree. I'd very much like to hear about the revenue model. What does the user pay? And what does the user get?
20:17:43 Richard Seltzer: Yoah and Raju -- I would think that there is enormous potential for Web-based apps, if they allow people to work from anywhere -- from any kind of portable device -- and store their data online, and share their documents securely with their teams.
20:17:47 Yoah Bar-David: All the online tools will have to develop a seamless integration option
20:22:11 Raju Vegesna: Regarding Revenue model....we offer these apps as products to be installed in your location. We charge for these products. For a company using applications like writer or sheet, we charge them for it as it'll be hosted specific for a company.
20:22:55 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- what is free? just the storage? or the use of the applications? How do you make money?
20:23:14 Raju Vegesna: Basic storage + use of applications will be free
20:23:43 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- what do you charge? ballpark? I'd like to get a sense of whether using web-based apps is or could be less expensive than buying Office from Microsoft?
20:23:44 Raju Vegesna: we make money by selling services to companies and selling the productized version to corporates who want to host these apps internally
20:24:52 Raju Vegesna: To give you a ballpark....with 1GB of storage, you probably are looking at around $5 or so per month.
20:25:15 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- that doesn't sound viable. That sounds like what one does when there are few users and you are trying to get started. But long-term, it's only natural that there will be costs. And to try it at all, I'd need to know, ballpark, what I'm getting
20:26:27 Yoah Bar-David: Richard, regarding pricing, look for example for XDrive, they charge $10 monthly for 5GB
20:27:01 Richard Seltzer: I'm remembering Mango's efforts. They had a great storage environment, seamless, secure, easy to use. But their pricing was so high that few companies tried it. Now I'm wondering about the pricing for this approach
20:28:51 Richard Seltzer: Stepping back -- it feels like there are two main reasons for web-based applications. One is collaboration (sharing documents over the Web), and the other is remote access to your own applications and the ability to work on them from anywhere from non-computer devices.
20:33:18 Doug Cubell: Richard, I like your point. You don't need much of a machine to run a browser
20:29:45 Yoah Bar-David: There are other benefits of web apps: No install, No virus eating your files No patches etc
20:32:04 Richard Seltzer: Yoah -- another benefit would be (I think) not having to upgrade from one version of Office to another.
20:34:06 Raju Vegesna: Doug...so you can buy a machine for cheap, install Linux and use your browser with these web apps.
20:34:27 Doug Cubell: sounds great! Where do I sign up!
20:34:27 Alfred Thompson: What about performance? I use a lot of web applications and most of them seem slow.
20:35:07 Yoah Bar-David: Alfred, it's partially your fault, MSIE is mych sloer than FireFox
20:35:21 Yoah Bar-David: But MSIE 7 is getting better
20:36:21 Alfred Thompson: I haven't used FireFox recently but didn't see a performance improvement when I was using it.
20:37:07 Doug Cubell: The big PC guys won't like this. They want to sell faster machines with bigger drives and aps, no?
20:37:27 Alfred Thompson: The other big concern is that I spend a lot of my time using the computer where there is no network. Airplanes for example. Other places the network is expensive.
20:37:28 Yoah Bar-David: Alfred: For complex webapps, there is a noticable difference
20:36:03 sujamthe: Alfred, performance goes to two things - your ISP of speed of access which is improving daily. Other is the technolgy behind these Apps, where AJAX is promising
20:37:13 Richard Seltzer: John -- do you mean you would expect the individual consumer to pay for the use of apps, on a per use or subscription basis? That's what I would have expected too. But what I'm seeing here is free use, which is a bit mind-boggling.
20:37:26 Raju Vegesna: Richard.....the usage of these apps will be free for individuals. For corporate customers with additional functionality, thereis going to be a price tag.
20:35:59 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- I'm not seeing much here about pricing for the use of apps. If the model (which I seem to be seeing here) is that use of the apps is free, and the companies will make money renting storage space and doing special custom setups for companies.
20:43:02 Doug Cubell: if connectivity were ubiquitous (we are not there yet), ASP models would be even better
20:43:07 Alfred Thompson: Sounds like a return to timesharing in some ways. That is to say central control of data and applications. There are people at MSFT more excited about this than I am. :-)
20:45:01 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- my alphabet-speak is a bit rusty. What MSFT? (Microsoft Means Fine Tobacco?).
20:46:33 Alfred Thompson: MSFT is the stock ticker code for Microsoft. It takes less typing than the whole name.
20:49:41 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- thanks. I remember 10 years ago lots of discussion about the time to come when the network would become the computer. This seems to be getting close to that. On the other hand, these apps would make the browser far more important than it is today.

Storing documents on the Web
20:08:07 Alfred Thompson: Where are the data files kept? On a local PC or on a server someplace?
20:08:52 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- If I create a document with one of your Web-based apps, where can I store it? Do I need to have the equjivalent Microsoft desktop app to store it on my desktop? And do you or others offer web-based storage for such documents, so I don't need a desktop application?
20:08:26 Raju Vegesna: All the data is kep on our server grid.in our data center. However, all of this data can be downloaded to your local machine. By default all the apps come with storage. You can just store all your documents online.
20:09:21 sujamthe: So I create a web based spreadsheet and it saves on Zoho servers and I can access it from any computer
20:09:44 Richard Seltzer: If my documents are stored in your data center 1) are they secure? 2) how much does that cost me? 3) how much storage do I have available?
20:10:28 Richard Seltzer: Raju, "all" my documents would amount to about 90 gigs. What are your limitations? And what do you charge for storage? And how do I know that my data is secure?
20:10:40 Raju Vegesna: For individuals, the service is going to be free. If you need more storage, you'll have to pay some amount. The pricing is not yet decided. It'll be reasonable.
20:11:39 Alfred Thompson: Some people might take advantage of the service just for the off site storage. I can see that being an attraction for some people.
20:12:29 sujamthe: Yoah and Raju: Do you offer a hosted version for the enterprise?
20:13:03 Raju Vegesna: Yes. We do for some of the products. We plan to do it for all the Zoho products
20:13:04 Yoah Bar-David: Not yet, but we plan to have one in a few weeks
20:13:34 Richard Seltzer: Yoah and Raju -- I'm slowly getting up to speed regarding Web-based apps. From a novice perspective storage is an important issue. I understand that I could use a web-based app, like word processor or spread sheet from anywhere, but where do I store it?
20:14:01 Yoah Bar-David: Data is stored on our servers.
20:14:03 Raju Vegesna: These are stored online by default. But you can export them to your desktop.
20:14:35 Yoah Bar-David: I think that in a short while we will see dedicated online stogate solutions, and then we will store our data on these services
20:15:05 Richard Seltzer: Yoah, "stored by default" doesn't answer me. If I start to use web-based apps on a regular basis, I'll soon have many many documents (I use over 90 gigs on my hard drive). There have to be limits and charges and security is an issue.
20:15:53 Yoah Bar-David: You are right Richard. We start with most people who do not have such large volume of data
20:16:05 Raju Vegesna: Richard, there will be a price for each Gig...or 10GB. We are going to release Zoho Drive to address this issue.
20:17:51 sujamthe: Raju: Whats a Zoho Drive, is it like purchasing a dedicated Drive online for use by my Zoho aps?
20:18:03 Raju Vegesna: Exactly. With Drive, all the data will also be available as a virtual folder in your local machine. So if you are online, you can map your 'Z Drive' to your online storage.
20:20:37 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- do you mean that there is no price today for storage? And what is the pricing model for use of a Web-based app? Do you sell "subscriptions"? Or do people pay on a per-use basis? Or can a company get unlimited access for a pre-defined team?
20:21:21 Raju Vegesna: Richard....for individuals it is free with limited storage (around 200MB). If you need more storage, we charge for it.
20:21:22 sujamthe: Raju: Is this free introductary to build user base?
20:21:49 Raju Vegesna: Sudha: No....this is going to be free for individuals forever with limited storage.
20:21:54 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- Mango used to have a very interesting web-based storage service that was completely compatible with Microsoft -- you felt like you were on a LAN. But I believe they went under (Don Gaubatz from Digital used to work for them).
20:22:36 sujamthe: Richard, Mango was ahead of its time
20:22:49 John Lin: instant access everywhere
20:37:34 Alfred Thompson: Where are the data files kept? On a local PC or on a server someplace?
20:38:37 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- I'm hearing that the data files are on servers somewhere. The user need not have much storage, need not have any software other than a browser. (Raju and Yoah, please correct me if I'm wrong).
20:38:58 Raju Vegesna: Richard....you are correct.
20:39:35 Yoah Bar-David: This is correct
20:46:28 Alfred Thompson: Some people might take advantage of the service just for the off site storage. I can see that being an attraction for some people.
20:53:39 Yoah Bar-David: You can use XDrive, but it's not free
20:53:45 sujamthe: John: I didn't dare to install it guessing that result :-))
20:53:55 Yoah Bar-David: And there are other players in remote storage
20:54:29 Raju Vegesna: There are many players like OmniDrive etc. There are atleast 10 other players

Adobe
20:13:07 sujamthe: John, coming from Adobe, I am curious to hear your thoughts about these hosted document solutions
20:14:09 John Lin: Well, Adobe has had for quite a while a web-based subscription service called createpdf.adobe.com for users who do not want to purchase or install Acrobat on their desktop

Google and Writely and "Webtops"
20:06:50 John Lin: Notice that Google Finance using Flash for their stock charts..
20:08:05 sujamthe: John, I didn't realize it was Flash in Google Finance!
20:52:22 sujamthe: I had heard of an open source App where someone allowed one to use their Google email with its vast storage as their desktop as a drive on their computer.
20:52:44 Yoah Bar-David: gdrive, but Google does not allow this
20:15:39 John Lin: I think the acquisition of Writely by Google has accelerated the interest , or revived the interest that Scott McNealy of Sun would call, the "webtop"
20:18:56 sujamthe: I think webtops (thanks John) bring one big advantage that desktops offer - collaboration.
20:20:11 Yoah Bar-David: I was suprized to see how much people do collaborate on documents
20:16:59 sujamthe: John, honstly I hadn't used Writely till I heard of the Google aquisition, but web based spreadsheets seem cool and I found irows offers integration into Writely.
20:17:27 Yoah Bar-David: We do offer integration with Writely but it more of a hack
20:18:21 John Lin: I had heard of Writely prior to the Google acquisition because they had a create PDF option from a Writely doc to PDF from what I recall
20:53:04 Yoah Bar-David: The rumor is that Google will soon have a remote storage offering
20:53:08 John Lin: Sudha - yeah, google kills accounts if they see people using Gmail for online storage

Wireless and "streaming" data
20:14:05 sujamthe: Doug - you mentioned you do bizdev in wireless area. Do you see the benefit of this with wireless devices or is the desktop here to stay?
20:15:54 Doug Cubell: When I was selling crypto into the DRM space (John remembers!), there was a vision of a "jukebox in the sky". In other words, you didn't store music, you streamed it from whatever device you had. Seems the same model works for applications, no?
20:16:44 Doug Cubell: streaming means that you always have your data, even on slim devices
20:39:43 sujamthe: Alfred, to your point about using your PC in places where there is no network - it will all change as we get wireless access everywhere at affordable prices. But from what both irows and zoho offers, you can use Word or Excel on your desktop and upload upload it to irows or zoho once you get network access.
20:40:45 sujamthe: Alfred, there will a phase of transition where people will use both desktop and web based apps and will switch to the latter.

Microsoft
20:18:53 Richard Seltzer: Alfred, is Microsoft playing in this space yet?
20:20:10 Alfred Thompson: Not in the web version of applications. At this time anyway. I don't know about the future. There are several ways of getting and using network file storage though.
20:37:34 sujamthe: Folks, MS embracing the hosted software model with web based apps http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/03/21/business/gates.php

Collaboration and Social Computing
20:20:42 sujamthe: Alfred, you mentioned interest in social computing. Does online collaboraton count in it?
20:20:49 Alfred Thompson: I am Alfred Thompson with Microsoft and a long time observer of social computing. Groove will be very much in use with the next version of Office for example. Yes I have watched a lot of talk about online collaboration over the years.
20:21:34 Alfred Thompson: Things like Live Meeting for example and now Groove.
20:22:36 John Lin: Sudha - so when you mean collaboration - realtime vs. asychronous? For asychronous (as I can imagine it is difficult to do real-time editing with 2+more people), we know the desktop model works (mail). I think the webtop is more about instant access
20:23:42 sujamthe: John: Agreed, technically real-time editing with 2+ people is difficult, but
20:24:58 sujamthe: I am thinking of a scenario from work - a team of people work on a proposal in Word. One master doc is copied and edited and theres a work flow for others to edit or accept changes. Its a slow process.
20:25:49 Doug Cubell: negotiating contracts is also challenging colloboration
20:26:29 sujamthe: I remember when I used to work in BBN/GTE in 98. We worked on a proposal for a client and different people worked on different components of it all in Word and someone co-ordinated and put it together and legal had to review it and we were chasing ...
20:27:01 Doug Cubell: yes, its a real hassle
20:27:02 sujamthe: we were chasing overnight deadlines with fast paces web customers who wanted the solution now, let alone a proposal.
20:27:55 sujamthe: In this web based app model, we could collaborate and work from anywhere. The software App has to come a long way to support work-flows etc.
20:28:17 Doug Cubell: imagine how functional kiosks could be if people used web-based aps and storage?
20:28:32 sujamthe: Yoah, Raju: Does your collaboration tools support work flows for the enterprise , I mean allows rules for colloboration?
20:28:36 Raju Vegesna: Sudha...these webapps doesnt have everything a desktop apps have. They have 'Enough' that 80% of the market needs.
20:28:53 Raju Vegesna: Yes, our collaboration product supports these.
20:29:25 sujamthe: Doug, people could hop out of planes and get their docs from an airplane kiosks! Oh, we'll never stop working
20:29:57 Doug Cubell: I don't mind people working as long as they don't talk on the phone! ;-)
20:31:04 Richard Seltzer: Doug -- exactly. Not just kiosks, but the ability to buy a computer for dirt cheap. The hardware is very inexpensive these days, the operating system and the Office applications cost more than the hardware. If I can use web-based apps for everything I don't need a full-blown computer.
20:39:34 Richard Seltzer: Raju and Yoah -- what about collaboration? what can you do with web-based apps that you can't do on the desktop? or what can you do much better web-based?
20:40:18 Richard Seltzer: Raju and Yoah -- what can you do with web-based apps that you can't do on a desktop or can't do very well there? what new modes of working and new business models could be built on these apps?
20:40:20 Yoah Bar-David: Richard: A few people can work on the same document, you can send links to docs intead copies
20:40:29 Raju Vegesna: Richard, you can create documents, share these with your frieds and work together on the same document without maintaining multiple copies of the same document going around.
20:41:11 Yoah Bar-David: You can publish data on other sites, and when you update the data, all sites that display this data get refreshed automatically
20:41:51 Raju Vegesna: Richard....availability of the data from any location/machine/browser is the key differentiator for web-based apps.
20:42:20 Richard Seltzer: Yoah -- when you send a link to a document, how does the security work? Is the document open to all to see or is it open only to a predefined set of team members? And do the fancy Microsoft Word markups go into play? Can you see the different versions and markup in color?
20:43:22 Yoah Bar-David: Richard: You are in charge, You can sent it with temporary permissions, you can define users and groups and set permissions
20:41:59 sujamthe: Yoah, Richard and I were talking about what speadsheets we can do online. Can you give examples of usage of your App whats same as Excel, what new spreadsheet are people using because its online?
20:42:47 sujamthe: Raju, you may answer that one too. Basically I am curious to see how usage and user horizons have expanded because of these online apps.
20:53:04 Raju Vegesna: Richard....to give you some pricing, our collaborative app, Zoho Virtual office is priced @ $9/User/Month
20:55:12 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- What do you get for $9/user/month?
20:55:55 Raju Vegesna: 1GB with Email, Document creation, Task management, calendaring, notes, favorites, group discussions, instant messaging etc
20:57:22 Raju Vegesna: If you need Word Processor, add $5 to it. If you need Spreadsheet, add another $ or $5 to it (based on different options like number of users etc).
21:00:56 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- the pricing is still confusing. $5 for this and $5 for that. I only pay $29 a month for my Web site (with 1500 documents and 20 gigs of traffic. Your pricing sounds high, or simply confusing. I'd like a simple flat rate for all I can eat.
21:02:02 sujamthe: Richard, Raju's pricing is ala carte, its actualy cheaper based on what you compare it with

Security, Reliability, and Standards Issues
20:30:12 Doug Cubell: are there any security concerns/issue with web-based aps?
20:30:33 Yoah Bar-David: Everything has security concerns ;-) You need to trust the place you put your data in, and the network
20:30:56 Raju Vegesna: These are taken care by our dedicated IT Proffs
20:30:59 Alfred Thompson: The down side of web applications is that they depend on the network always being there. Users are pretty much dead in the water if the network goes down.
20:31:21 sujamthe: With MS Word, or PDF its a question of standards.
20:31:25 John Lin: Any concerns by corporate customers about what happens to their data if you go under? (i.e. files stored on your servers)
20:32:39 sujamthe: John: I think irows mentions a corporate version of their solution to be setup inside an enterprise.
20:31:58 Yoah Bar-David: Corporate customers today want to host their own servers of webapps
20:32:23 Raju Vegesna: John, for corporate customers we offer these apps as products
20:32:34 Yoah Bar-David: Exactly, no incompatability issues
20:31:47 sujamthe: Will these Web -based Apps be compatible with other such apps or will be it a standards game?
20:32:30 Doug Cubell: we will all be VERY dependent on our ISPs
20:33:09 Yoah Bar-David: Doug: just like we do for electricty or phone
20:33:38 sujamthe: I think existing big software players are moving to this model too. John mentioned what Adobe does. Oracle has a new oracle-on-demand Hosted ASP version of Oracle, no need to add patches, maintenence etc. I like it
20:35:09 John Lin: I see - i was thinking of the ASP model for the individual consumer. How about a salesforce.com model?
20:36:05 Doug Cubell: John, how do you mean?
20:37:11 John Lin: Doug - well, instead of hosting software internally within a corporate firewall like what irows is talking about.
20:37:42 Richard Seltzer: John what is the salesforce.com model?
20:37:48 John Lin: I think Salesforce.com is completely hosted - no internal hosting within corporate firewall, so completely subscription model driven
20:38:30 Yoah Bar-David: You are right, John, and they are successful at this
20:38:50 John Lin: I know Salesforce.com has had challenges recently with uptime.
20:58:47 John Lin: If everything is encrypted by the user with his "private key", then handing over the data shouldn't be a problem...?
20:58:26 sujamthe: Raju, can you share your experience selling this hosted ASP model in the enterprise.
20:59:28 Raju Vegesna: Sudha.....These corporations prefer installing these apps internally. It makes sence for them as there is IT Staff to do it.
20:59:38 sujamthe: Richard, what is Heidi's company, the hosted community software? I remember how hard it was to sell inside Harcourt just because it was hosted.
Richard Seltzer: You probably mean Sitescape. They sell and host collaboration software, highly structured forums.
21:00:53 Yoah Bar-David: Companies do not like hosted solutions today, they prefer to do the hosting both for security and availability reasons.
21:02:41 Raju Vegesna: I dont think a hosted solution will fit all. An application has to be available both as a product and as a service. People should pick whichever fits them.

Direction of software development
20:43:59 Richard Seltzer: Yoah and Raju -- Are there new apps available or new apps in the works that take full advantage of the collaborative capabilities of Web-apps? This feels like a revolutionary change (to "the network is the computer", as someone here said earlier).
20:44:55 Yoah Bar-David: There are many collaborative web apps, from shared calendars, to-do lists, documents, and more
20:45:33 Raju Vegesna: Richard...Zoho Virtual office is done for this along those lines.
20:44:23 sujamthe: I appreciate all the efforts gone into these apps and whats avaible today, but I see them in an early stage of change, similar to Web Apps (desktop based Web Apps) as they evolved from automating html writing to dynamic html pages to content management and document management systems and later into App servers etc.
20:46:22 Richard Seltzer: Yoah -- I'm a pie-in the sky idealist. I'd be expecting something radically different --a new class of apps, just as spreadsheets were a new class of apps, a "killer app" for PC use, a long long time ago. what's the killer app for "the network is the com
20:46:29 sujamthe: ok folks, I am speculating here, but I think today we see them all as web-based apps, web-based spreadsheets and doc writers. They are going to evolve into a new set of systems as users adopt.
20:47:53 Yoah Bar-David: I agree Su, This is just the beginning
20:48:12 Raju Vegesna: Richard...thereis no one killer app today. All these apps are going to evolve to become Office 2.0
20:48:37 sujamthe: One piece I am curious is to see if there are developers interface to any of these? What do you think about it? I mean offering an API to allow developers to build more Apps linked to one of these instead of saying users will have to pay one company for all their needs
20:49:26 Yoah Bar-David: There are and will be more APIs, but I think that in the future there will be just a few very big players
20:49:55 sujamthe: Excel is established because of all the apps that are built upon it by people inside companies, like that these apps will have to evolve for different verticals
20:49:59 Raju Vegesna: Sudha...We started offering these APIs. People took this and integrated our Zho Writer with Google Home page for example.
20:50:42 Richard Seltzer: Su -- yes, I'd expect there to be some kind of plug-in model, a way that third-party developers could add value to these web-based app environments.
20:50:48 sujamthe: Raju, thats cool. Do you have a URL for us to see it? Maybe you can email us later or post to the blog.
20:51:11 Raju Vegesna: Sudha....I'll email it
20:53:12 sujamthe: I say this as an example in my belief that there are smart innovators everywhere who will add stuff even if you don't allow it officially.
20:54:25 Richard Seltzer: From my non-technical perspective, I'm seeing several different kinds of opportunities -- super browsers that help you do it all (and in some way control how you do it -- an opportunity for Micrsoft to stay in charge); third-party software development ...

Targeted advertising as possible source of revenue and related privacy issues
20:55:15 Yoah Bar-David: Yes Richard, and thing about the targetted Ads one can send you if they "read" all your docs
20:56:18 John Lin: Yes, there have been a lot of blog commentary about the government getting their hands on your data
20:56:22 Richard Seltzer: Yoah -- did I miss something in all the type running by my eyes -- targetted ads? Who is the "they" would be be "reading" my docs?
20:56:37 John Lin: (around the discussion of Google and the U.S. government looking at search data)
20:57:35 Richard Seltzer: John -- yes, that is a serious issue. I consider that an essential part of "security". I need to know that no one can read my documents unless I give them permission (or unless they get the same kind of subpoena as they'd need to read what's on my hard drive.
20:56:46 sujamthe: There were a whole lot of remote storage companies a few years back too. Isn't Yahoo briefcase one some hybrid solution of remote storage of your docs?
20:56:54 Yoah Bar-David: The Googles and Microsofts. Their model will be that you get it all for free, just see banners
20:57:35 sujamthe: I am not sure targetd ads would be the only model to evolve for all these web apps.
20:57:54 Alfred Thompson: Google picks ads to show gmail users in part based on what is in their email
20:58:18 Yoah Bar-David: It made targetting better
20:59:02 Richard Seltzer: Alfred -- yes, I tried gmail for a couple days, and then dropped it becasue of the ads.
20:59:07 Alfred Thompson: I pay for an account on Hotmail so that I am freed from a lot of ads. I think that some will do that and some will say "I can ignore the ads" but people will want a choice.

Wrapup
20:44:03 Doug Cubell: Folks, I have to run. I'd love to read the rest of this thread later. Thanks!!!
21:00:04 John Lin: Got to run!
21:00:42 sujamthe: Bye John, thanks for coming
21:01:26 Richard Seltzer: All, we've reached the end of the hours. Thanks to all for joining us. I'll save the "history" and edit the transcript and post it within the next couple days.
21:01:52 Yoah Bar-David: Thank's everyone, it has been a pleasure
21:02:11 Richard Seltzer: We've said a lot in a very short time. I look forward to going over it all, and catching much that I missed in the rush of things.
21:02:35 sujamthe: Thanks Yoah and Raju, we appreciate your time and comments. Bye everyone.
21:02:56 Richard Seltzer: Actually, it might make sense to post the transcript as a web-based app that the participants to comment on and add to. Could we do that? A document that we could "link to" with permission given to the folks who were participants here?
21:03:55 Raju Vegesna: Yes.....you can share it as a document in Zoho Writer
21:04:15 sujamthe: Richard, we shd try that
21:05:01 Raju Vegesna: Sure....I'll be glad to do it.
21:04:41 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- thanks. Once I have an edited transcript, I'll ask you how we can do it. The process would be a learning experience.
21:04:31 Raju Vegesna: We plan to automate this with Zoho Chat - which u guys can use BTW,
21:05:04 Richard Seltzer: Raju -- Zoho Chat sounds interesting. I'd like to learn more. Thanks.
21:05:15 Raju Vegesna: just visit the URL. It is going to be released soon...but just sign up and play with it. http://www.zohochat.com/
21:05:31 Richard Seltzer: Will do. Thanks again.
21:06:06 sujamthe: Raju, next session April 5th, we have the blogchat founder joining us. I'd like to see if I can try zohochat before that.

April 5th - Join us for live chat about "Magic of Blogs - Part 1"

2006-03-22T07:38:00.000-08:00

What: Magic of Blogs - Part 1
When: Wed, April 5th noon PST (3pm EST)
Where: Here on Blogcom, just click on the diamond on the right and join the chat

Its FREE! All content will be archived here.

Topic: Magic of Blog - Part 1

This is the first in series to explore whats the magic with blogs, how have they transformed the web? What new b-models have evolved around blogs, what new cool technologies, trends?

Invited Guests:
Brent Ashley, the AJAX man, co-founder of blogchat (the chat we use here).

Here is his detailed bio
David Sifry, Founder and CEO of Technorati
Technorati tracks 31.1 million blogs on the web and 2.2 billion links
Its a search engine and directory of blogs. I particularly love David's State of the Blogosphere

How to participate:
Join us for a live chat. Or email Su (sujamthe at yahoo dot com) or Richard (seltzer at samizdat dot com) with questions or comments or simple post a comment to this blog.

- Sudha

Mar 22nd Join us for the chat - Do we need a Desktop - Part1- AJAX Internet Desktop Applications

2006-03-17T06:41:00.000-08:00

When: Wed Mar 22nd, noon PST (3pm EST)
Where: Here at iblogcom, click on diamond on the right join the chat.
How to: Just click and join the chat and share your questions and comments with the community. Its free, all content will be moderated by Richard Seltzer and archived here.

Getting started: We'll open the chatroom 1 hour before the chat. Then the red diamond will turn green. Just click and it will open a window and enter your name and URL (optional) and start typing.

Topic: Do we need a Desktop? Part 1 - AJAX Internet Desktop Applications
Lets discuss with industry experts and look at cool products and discuss where the future in web based Applications. Will you use it as a consumer? What b-model will you support? Will you like it for your enterprise? What are your thoughts? Questions and Comments?

Invited Guests:

1. Yoah Bar-David: co-founder of irows.com
2. Raju Vegesna from Adventnet, makers of the zoho suite of AJAX Web Apps including zohosheet

(More details and bios below)
iRows (http://www.irows.com/) is an online (web based) spreadsheet offering. iRows allows users to create and manage spreadsheets online, store them globally, and access their data with just a web browser (no installation is required).iRows offers a rich and growing functional subset of what Excel offers, with some unique features that Excel does not have, like collaboration, permission, and web publishing.

Yoah has over 20 years experience in managing R&D teams. Yoah co-founded Neat Group (http://www.neatgroup.com/) and acted as its VP R&D (acquired by Cendant - http://www.cendant.com/). Neat Group customers included United Airlines, Marriott, Orbitz and other leading travel players. Previously he led development teams at Ubique, an internet startup company that was acquired by AOL and later by IBM, and Sapiens (http://www.sapines.com/) during which he was located in California and in Hong-Kong. Yoah Holds a B.Sc. and M.Sc. in Computer Science.

Zoho Sheet is a web-based collaborative spreadsheet application which offers complete spreadsheet functionality and user experience of a standalone app on the web. The functionality is almost comparable to an offline spreadsheet application with very good support for formulas, graphs etc apart from additional collaborative functionality which is not available with offline apps.

If you cannot make it but want to send a question, post it as a comment here or email Richard at seltzer at samizdat dot com or Sudha at sujamthe at yahoo dot com
-Sudha Jamthe

Blogchat topics

2006-03-14T10:08:00.000-08:00

At blogcom here, we will discuss cool technologies, trends and evolving b-models and invite a speaker to join us online from relevent sites and companies or experts relevant to the topic.

I have been looking into possible future topics and potential guests to invite here.

Please post your comments on possible ideas or contact me at sujamthe at yahoo dot com We do not like sales pitch about any company or product, of course.

Potential Topics on the table are:
1. Internet Based Desktop Applications
Lean Web-based Apps that will replace existing desktop Apps like Excel and Word, and also new distruptive technologies so cool to break the lack of innovation of the desktop space.
Personally as a lover of mobililty, I believe that the Internet has evoled with new users, who do not love installing apps on their desktops and lean hosted apps is the future.
2.Magic of Blogs
Discussion about blogs, blog related tools, techonologies, evolving trends of how blog have evolved the web into web 2.0 and my ever-favorite about building online communities using blogs.
It will be interesting to look at new b-models that have evolved (have they?)related to blogs.

BlogCom Technology

2006-02-28T20:20:00.000-08:00

First I loved Jybe, the idea was to join your browser to everyone. So it appears like a webex session but instead of one's desktop, we can all access each other's browser. Neat idea.
Oh! It gave me script errors. Lets hope it gets cleaned up soon.

Whats worked for me is blogchat. Its a beta product by Brent Ashley, the AJAX guy, been in beta since 2002. Simple, clutter free.

How to use: We (host) need to start a host session at our pre-arranged timing. Any user can click on the diamond button (on the right) and when its red, they can join a blog community session. Everyone can see everyone's comments. We can click on history and retrieve the entire transcript within 12 hours and save to a file.

This seems the best technology to create a blog community with our plans to host the community discussions on a routine basis.

I don't have any info about how the scalability, how many concurrent users can it host and the reliablity of the service. But it seems exciting enough to try. I'd say lets go for it.

I am open for comments on people's experience with blogchat, and any ideas of any other technology worth trying.

Richard: Please read the help docs of blogchat to see its features and usage.

Blog + Chat = BlogCom?

2006-02-25T16:25:00.000-08:00

Back in the days of the Internet boom, I ran a weekly chat session about Business on the Web and Sudha Jamthe ran an organization of entrepreneurs and would-be entrepreneurs (Web-Net) that met face-to-face at MIT. Now we’re both feeling a bit nostalgic for those days — the personal networking, the fast inspiring exchange of ideas. And Sudha has come up with the notion that maybe we could combine the capabilities of a blog with those of chat and use such a beast (tentatively call “BlogCom”, suggesting community, communication, and dot-com) to build a new online community that would share insights into what is happening business-wise on the Web. If we can get it going, we’d probably (as I used to do with my chats and as Sudha used to do with Web-net), invite “speakers” to tell us about interesting new projects and products and business models.

Please take a glance at my old article about possible business use of online chat at http://www.samizdat.com/events.html and transcripts of our old chat sessions (which ran from June 1996 to November 2003 at http://www.samizdat.com/chat.html
First we need the right kind of online environment.

In our email correspondence discussing this idea, Sudha asked about what capabilities we would need. I replied, “I believe we will be trying to build an on-line community of some sort, consisting of people who have little or no connection with one another other than the blog/chat. And the transcript is likely to be more important than the live audience. And we have no need for video or audio.

“Ideally, I’d like to be able to go to an ordinary blog (like my WordPress one), and rather than posting an item or a response to an item, open a chat that anyone (or members only) can join in, and have the transcript automatically saved so it becomes an item in the blog. It might be an alternative to “comment/reply”, with the main item being an announcement explaining the purpose of the chat session and and the topic and who is expected to attend. The code for that could probably be done as a “plug-in” to WordPress. I wouldn’t spend much effort on management controls. The chat could be free-for-all. In all probability most sessions would have fewer than 10 active participants; but we’d like to be able to accommodate as many as 50 or 100 simultaneous passive participants. Automatically saving the transcript would be important. And it would also be important that everyone connected to that blog item could see live updates of the chat text, without having to repeatedly “refresh”. It would also be good if everyone who is a member of the blog could automatically receive a chat alert email half an hour before a scheduled chat.

“I doubt that there’s anything like that now.”

Sudha replied, “Good idea. lets start a blog with the message that we are opening up an online community like the one we did with chat in 95/96 and link to the transcripts for people to get an idea.

“My thoughts on requirements are exactly same. Blog should archive. We should be able to all type up comments 10 to 50 people. Those who can’t make it should be able to leave their comments. Everyone shd see everything. All archived in the edit. We can edit it to get it cleaned up matching context of different responses and maybe write an analysis if we feel like.
“I really like jybe idea, it says you signup and everyone can see the same browser as everyone types. That way we can see product demos if some invited guest is showing something. Thats a requirement, to be able to see some product demos. Or maybe we can just open parallel browser windows and do it, thats ok.

“I am excited!!!! Want to brainstorm some topics and bring couple experts at the same time and promote it to offline groups. That way, we can build initital momentum.
“Feel free to post my thoughts on the blog and invite discussions. The market will lead us as always )

Is anyone out there interested? Does anyone know of a blog-plugin or standalone software that could help make this work the way we’d like it to? Other suggestions?

Richard Seltzer

About Blogcom - people behind blogcom

2006-02-22T08:14:00.000-08:00

Blogcom is a blog based community organized by us to share information about cool trends, technolgies, evoling b-models and network with fellow netizens.

Its free and open. We archive all the chat contents and try not to allow sales pitch for any particular vendor.

Sudha Jamthe, an Internet Entreprenuer and marketing executive and Richard Seltzer an Internet Evangelist and author of Altavista Search Revolution became nostalgic for the early days of the web circa 1995.

Su used to lead Web-Net, a business networking user group at MIT Sloan school 1995 to 2000 where Vermeer, Allaire, Interwoven, Ziplink, and many of the early web companies have presented for market validation. Web-Net hosted Richards' weekly chats "business on the web" which ran from Jun 1996 to Nov 2003.

We decided to put our nostalgias back to create blogcom here. Su organizes blogcom and invites guests and markets blogcom to build out the community. Richard moderates the chats and promotes it with his flypaper technique and archives the chat content.

Who can join: Its free. All are welcome. You can come to share your knowledge on a specific topic or can come ask questions or just join and network.

Post comments on blogcom or email us at sujamthe at yahoo dot com or seltzer at samizdat dot com.