Wednesday, May 24, 2006

Transcript (unedited) of May 9th chat - Participatory Media Communities with Paul Jones

15:00:21 Richard Seltzer: It's now 3 PM (Eastern Time). Let's get started. Paul, please introduce yourself and give us a quick overview of ibiblio.
15:00:58 sujamthe: I am back here
15:01:33 Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Ruby, we're just getting started. Please introduce yourself.
15:01:53 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- what's the main purpose and function of ibiblio?
15:02:35 Paul Jones: oops away for a moment
15:02:54 Richard Seltzer: I see that ibiblio used to be known as sunsite.unc.edu Are you still connected with the U. of North Carolina? Is your operation an education non-profit?
15:03:04 sujamthe: Hi Ruby
15:03:07 Paul Jones: ibiblio develops and serves people and group who want to share information freely
15:03:15 Richard Seltzer: Welcome, Jeff Smith, we're just getting started. Please introduce yourself.
15:03:30 Ruby: Hi, I'm Ruby Sinreich. I am the creator/editor/boss of a local politics blog in Chapel Hill. http://OrangePolitics.org Just here to soak up some of Paul's wisdom...
15:03:40 Paul Jones: ]we began as sunsite.unc.edu the first sunsite in 1992
15:03:40 Jeff Smith: Hi Richard. Hi Everyone
15:03:50 Paul Jones: halloween officially and aappropriately
15:03:56 Paul Jones: trick and treat
15:04:05 sujamthe: I am a startup advisor and one of the organizers of this chat. Hi Richard, maybe you can intro yourself too :-))
15:04:25 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- that's a very broad definition. There's all kinds of information sharing int he world. Do you specialize in text or audio or video or software? And what is your business model? Is this an all-volunteer non-profit operation? Or do you make money s
15:04:28 Jeff Smith: I'm Jeff Smith; technical director and search optimization specialist at Matrix Media Technologies in San Diego, CA
15:04:45 Paul Jones: sunsite/metalab/ibiblio are part of the university of north carolina
15:04:49 sujamthe: Hi Jeff
15:05:05 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Sayan, please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
15:05:07 Paul Jones: particularly the school of information and library science and
15:05:17 Jeff Smith: Hi Ruby
15:05:17 sujamthe: Pal, as sunsite it was not a community, like ibililio today, right?
15:05:17 Paul Jones: the school of journalism and mass communication
15:05:34 Richard Seltzer: So, Paul, are you an employee of UNC? or what is your role?
15:05:36 Sayan: I'm Sayan and I am a graduate student at the School of Information & Library Science here at UNC
15:05:36 Paul Jones: also for a long time part of the information tech services
15:05:55 Paul Jones: i'm faculty in both schools - journalism and info science
15:06:29 Richard Seltzer: I remember way back sunsite.unc.edu was one of the first and largest nodes on the Internet, and a great resources for public domain etexts. Even now don't you still serve as web host for the Gutenberg Project?
15:06:30 Paul Jones: i invented the sunsite program and the first site to be sunsite back a long time agao
15:06:32 Paul Jones: ago
15:06:51 Paul Jones: now we do much more as you can see by visiting ibiblio.org
15:07:08 Paul Jones: among the sites we facilitate by hosting and by development
15:07:13 Ruby: By way of introduction, I am also a consultant to nonprofits who want to utilize social networks and network-centric strategies into their advocacy. So I'm in terested in the topic of "Participatroy Media Communities" from many angles.
15:07:13 Richard Seltzer: Paul, interesting. I've seen the term "sunsite" many times. But I'm not sure what it means (aside from some connection with Sun Microsystems). Can you clarify?
15:07:36 Paul Jones: on SunSITE. it stands for something like
15:07:45 sujamthe: I remember older online communities where it waas newsgroups and lot of mailing list, there were quite a few with local groups attached as part of the old Boston Computer Society
15:07:55 Paul Jones: SUN Software, Information and Technology Exchange
15:08:19 Richard Seltzer: I've visited ibiblio, but still am not sure of the scope of waht you do -- some links are to other sites and some are to files at your site; and I suppose some are to non-profits hosted at your site. What's your overall goal?
15:08:24 Paul Jones: we started as a way not only to share software but to share other formats
15:08:33 sujamthe: Paul, was it a community when it started? How has it changed as ibibilio?
15:08:42 Paul Jones: in what were then developing protocols
15:08:50 Paul Jones: let me catch up a bit
15:09:08 sujamthe: ok, I'll wait
15:09:21 Paul Jones: yes over 15 years we've changed but not so much in some ways
15:09:25 Richard Seltzer: So what is your connection with Gutenberg? Are you just the host offering them Web space? Or are you responsible for making their 15,000+ books easy to find and easy to download?
15:09:45 Paul Jones: we've had funding independent of Sun for about half our life now
15:10:04 Paul Jones: we do more formats and more ambitious projects and more software development
15:10:28 Paul Jones: also we've gone from just proving a sandbox
15:10:46 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- getting to Su's questions; I'm curious too, in what sense is ibiblio a "social community"? And did it get that way on purpose, or did you wake up one day and find that that was the case?
15:10:51 Paul Jones: to providing a place while still experimental is also an archive
15:11:18 Paul Jones: waaaay back we set up a portal called launchpad
15:11:32 Paul Jones: that gave access to the newsgroups etc that su mentioned
15:11:33 Richard Seltzer: I see lots of linux related archives at ibiblio, also lots of RSS feeds. Is linux a major project for you?
15:11:45 Brian Russell: hello. I'm a podcaster and blogger at AudioActivism.org which is hosted by ibiblio.org
15:11:47 Paul Jones: we allowed annonymous reading for example
15:11:55 Paul Jones: which seemed important
15:12:00 Richard Seltzer: Welcome Brian. Please introduce yourself and let us know your interests.
15:12:32 Paul Jones: we also provided access to all of the GNU software and eventually, once it was invented, Linux
15:12:40 Brian Russell: I live in Chapel Hill, NC and work at UNC.
15:12:51 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- I'm curious. Is there a connection between social networking/online communicties and the kind of search engine optimization work you normally do?
15:13:00 Paul Jones: so we had a software community and an active creative community
15:13:08 Richard Seltzer: Brian -- are you connected with ibiblio?
15:13:15 Brian Russell: I'm interested in bridging the digital divide, helping others learn how to make their own media.
15:13:28 Brian Russell: No. I am not connected with ibiblio. Just a fan and a user.
15:13:41 Paul Jones: brian put on the podcastercon.org here with help from ibib
15:14:03 Paul Jones: do we want to talk about community?
15:14:07 Jeff Smith: Absolutely. The search engines are always looking for was to base rankings on less and less manipulatable data. Usage statistics are one metric that is very difficult to manipulate on a large scale.
15:14:10 Brian Russell: PodcasterCon is an unconference created by participants.
15:14:32 sujamthe: unconference?
15:14:46 Paul Jones: http://podcastercon.org
15:14:52 Brian Russell: an unconference is basically an event where the particpants determine the content
15:14:57 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- so is the heart of your "community" software developers invovled in GNU sowtware and Linux? And is your main social activity making it easy for them to share and comment on and improve on that open source software? In other words, is this a piece
15:15:00 Brian Russell: we used a wiki
15:15:10 Jeff Smith: So, creating social functions on sites is a great way to convey a high degree of user satisfaction (ie visitor stays on site longer, visits more pages after finding it via search results)
15:15:31 Paul Jones: in ancient days yes. but now we're involved in many comminuties
15:15:43 Paul Jones: say tape traders at etree.org
15:15:50 Paul Jones: say video bloggers
15:15:59 Jeff Smith: Also, as links are the main ingredient to high rankings now we're looking to more social (viral) ways of doing link development. Much better than sending out reciprocal link requests!
15:16:05 Paul Jones: distributed editting at gutenburg
15:16:10 Sayan: book readers at librivox.org
15:16:24 Paul Jones: GPS explorers at confluence.org
15:16:45 Paul Jones: we are involved in supporting and developing communities of all kinds
15:16:50 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- in other words, you want to work with sites that are online community hubs in some way? If so, how would you like to work with them? For instance, what business model could come into play with a site like ibiblio?
15:17:06 sujamthe: Jeff: what do you mean by social ways of link development, how its is different from viral, refer 6 friends for a service?
15:17:22 Paul Jones: http://lyceum.ibiblio.org is an open source blog sphere for example
15:18:00 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- I perceive that some of the very best community sites operate in association with universities and are, for the most part non-profit. Are there advertising models that could be non-invasive adn consistent with the site's goals and that could help
15:18:02 sujamthe: Paul, its amazing, I saw etree.org, didn't realize so many other communities
15:18:04 Paul Jones: at present we don't do social linking like say digg or annotated links like del.icio.us
15:18:11 Brian Russell: lyceum is based on wordpress
15:18:14 Brian Russell: btw
15:18:17 Paul Jones: most are communities
15:18:36 Paul Jones: yes on lyceum. it's WP as install once run many blogs
15:18:44 sujamthe: Pl tell us about this public domain community trend - who are these people. techies only? what makes the groups self-governing?
15:18:53 Paul Jones: most are communities of practive
15:19:20 Paul Jones: k. amongst the groups we've been involved with early on is creative commons
15:19:31 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- do you do anything special with public domain books in etext form? or do projects like Gutenberg just use your computing capacity to make their stuff available?
15:19:38 Paul Jones: the icommons.org international group is their latest
15:19:52 Paul Jones: yes and yes on books
15:20:15 Paul Jones: so we pretty much give tech support to gutenburg, but
15:20:16 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- I'm not familiar with all the current buzzwords. Can you define "communities of practice" and "creative commons", please?
15:20:56 Paul Jones: yes first this. with documenting the american south or folkstreams.net we are more handson
15:21:06 Ruby Sinreich: Those are not buzzwords.
15:21:21 Ruby Sinreich: They are standards for online community building.
15:21:23 Paul Jones: "communities of practice" = folks that get to gether to do something specific
15:21:24 Richard Seltzer: Are all the sites and projects that you help and support "non-proft"? Often there are small and on-person operations on the web that have goals similar to non-profits.
15:21:32 Ruby Sinreich: http://CreativeCommons.org
15:21:41 Paul Jones: say surfing, say knitting, say gps explorations
15:22:23 Paul Jones: creative commons goes international with http://icommons.org
15:22:55 Richard Seltzer: Ruby. I'm still not clear on this. "Community" is a rather general and vague term. How do you define it? (I presume that you ahve to define it precisely in order to develop "standards" for it).
15:23:25 Paul Jones: but also for your amusement see larry lessig speaking in 1998 at unc at http://mirrors.ibiblio.org/pub/mirrors/speakers/lessig
15:23:46 Ruby Sinreich: I don't mean standards like things you measure, but like things that are standard or basic.
15:23:55 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- can you give an example of a "more social way of doing link development"? is this someone, like me, with a small business/personal Web site could do?
15:24:03 Paul Jones: well the nature of communities is that they tend to define and redefine themselves
15:24:32 Paul Jones: so a group may start out as info about, literally, tibetan human rights and democracy
15:24:37 Jeff Smith: Richard - there is probably not a way, with advertising restrictions being what they are, that .edu sites can work in that way.
15:25:06 Paul Jones: and then some members decide they need to create an AIDs related site for Tibetans and visitors to Dharmasala
15:25:28 Paul Jones: the some others will work on that say
15:25:32 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- thants for the links/references. I'll track those down afterwards. (No time now). FYI -- I'll post an edited version of the transcript of this chat so we can go back and check such things, and point other people to the discussion who weren't ab
15:25:39 Jeff Smith: Jeff- Ok, here's an example of a social way of doing link development: We're developing a site, just like myspace, but for a large specific niche. The main differences are that we make some of our users money and we offer more of a rating based system.
15:26:23 Jeff Smith: The social link part is that we offer them code they can place on their blog, site, other sites' profiles, etc to get themselves "ranked" elsewhere and that links back to us.
15:26:27 Paul Jones: how about a site called FaceSpaceDiggilicousrrr
15:26:30 Jeff Smith: Sorry, didn't mean to put "Jeff-"
15:26:45 Brian Russell: I think Jeff has hit on precisely why not for profit sites (individuals and groups) are on the forefront of social networks. Commerce isn't clouding our innovation.
15:27:00 Paul Jones: it would combine face book, myspace, digg, flickr, flappr, and delicious
15:27:08 sujamthe: Ruby, I just saw your site and curious, whats network centric activism?
15:27:16 Brian Russell: because not for profits usually don't advertise we concentrate on movement buildign and education
15:27:39 Brian Russell: IMHO
15:27:43 Jeff Smith: So, what we would have paid thousands of dollars for we end up getting for free AND we've been able to give users a way to promote themselves and add unique content to their own sites.
15:27:46 Paul Jones: jeff how would that work on a highly hetrogenous site like ibiblio?
15:28:05 Jeff Smith: Brian, I'd have to say that MySpace is on the forefront.. would you?
15:28:12 sujamthe: Jeff, isn't it same as the prior model of companies asking to link to them as "powered by so and so"?
15:28:20 Ruby Sinreich: Well I don't want to fork this discussion even further, but network-centric advocacy is an an approach that puts activists first, allowing them to build and use their own social networks,a nd to lead movements from the bottom up.
15:28:20 Richard Seltzer: Brian -- interesting. I always throught of commerce as providing incentive for innovation, rather than clouding it. There are always far more things that you could do than you have time and resources to do. Commercial helps you sort out which to focus o
15:28:38 Jeff Smith: Suja - Similar, however this is dynamic content.
15:29:02 Jeff Smith: Our control panel makes it like AdSense
15:29:14 Brian Russell: jeff - in the mainstream MySpace may have the most users. Not sure if this equals forfront or not
15:29:18 Jeff Smith: they can customize everything to match and select which types of pictures to display, etc.
15:29:20 Paul Jones: i see
15:29:23 sujamthe: jeff, whats changes dynamically?
15:29:39 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- do you have a Web page on which you explain your concept? It's a bit too complex for me to grasp on the fly like this.
15:29:41 Jeff Smith: Paul - I'm not exactly sure; it depends on teh goals of the site.
15:29:45 Paul Jones: not all innovation is driven by profit motive as even Jeff is telling us
15:30:06 Ruby Sinreich: Yes, Paul!
15:30:09 Paul Jones: see in particular Yochai Benkler's Wealth of Networks
15:30:10 Ruby Sinreich: Amen.
15:30:18 Jeff Smith: Richard - Actually, the site will be on our testing server in about 7 days. It should go live in about 3-4 weeks.
15:30:22 sujamthe: Paul, true, but profit motives is what brings in capital to scale it.
15:30:40 Paul Jones: Yochai talks intelligently about non-market production
15:30:49 Ruby Sinreich: A lot of key social technologies don't need capital.
15:30:50 Jeff Smith: Paul - Absolutely agree. It just requires resources.
15:30:53 Paul Jones: which is not opposed to market production
15:31:01 Jeff Smith: Different organizations obtain them different ways.
15:31:10 Ruby Sinreich: Resources = not just money.
15:31:11 Paul Jones: but is situated beside and interacting with the market
15:31:16 Ruby Sinreich: Are you all familiar with open source software?
15:31:24 Jeff Smith: Ruby - correct
15:31:29 Jeff Smith: Yes
15:31:30 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- It's my sense that there are several different stages to innovation. There's the early brainstorming phase, when you want untrrammelled creativity. Then once you have a thousand ideas on the table, you need to sort through them to determine whic
15:31:37 sujamthe: Agree, open source movement has diff motivation.
15:31:41 Ruby Sinreich: they have developed some amazingly powerful tools using non-monetary resources (ie: smart peopel who wantto help each other)
15:31:43 Paul Jones: yes OSS is one example in which non-market and market interact
15:31:43 Brian Russell: Richard - by clouding I mean priorities on commercial sites are different than not for profit sites and set you down a different path of decisions.
15:31:55 sujamthe: I am amazed at what motivates social communities like the ones Paul hosts?
15:32:31 Paul Jones: we've gotten a bit from ibibl
15:32:47 Paul Jones: hang on i've got a call from Khartoom
15:32:49 Paul Jones: literally
15:33:12 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- for instance, open source projects like Linux, can go far in terms of development. But to take it to the next stage, to make it available for use by the non-technical public, you need a commercial incentive -- that's where companies like Red Hat
15:33:16 Paul Jones: back
15:33:34 Paul Jones: things don;t look to market driven there at the moment ;->
15:33:58 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- Khartoum? That's impressive. But a call? A physical phone call? You could have done that a little classier... :-)
15:34:02 Paul Jones: i would avoid deterministic frameworks like stages
15:34:05 Ruby Sinreich: What about Firefox?
15:34:06 Paul Jones: skype
15:34:17 Brian Russell: thunderbird
15:34:32 Brian Russell: Open Office
15:34:33 sujamthe: Riuby, sorry I missed if you already explained netcentric campaigns
15:34:34 Paul Jones: yes market opportunities arise from non-market
15:34:40 Ruby Sinreich: OSS can bu just as user-friendly and accesible as commercial software. cometimes more so.
15:34:45 Paul Jones: byt not necessarily in stages
15:34:52 Ruby Sinreich: I did, Su. Scoll up. :-)
15:35:02 Paul Jones: skype to khrtoom
15:35:10 Richard Seltzer: Paul and Ruby -- I'm getting the sense that when you talk about "community" you primarily mean a community of software developers working on open software projects. Is that the case?
15:35:21 Ruby Sinreich: that's one kind of community.
15:35:35 Ruby Sinreich: i often think of the community of people who participate on my local politics blog.
15:35:47 Ruby Sinreich: or the community of friends I have on flickr, for example.
15:35:49 Paul Jones: only one type of community of practice
15:35:53 Paul Jones: folks that do something
15:36:02 Ruby Sinreich: Yep.
15:36:02 Paul Jones: and build something
15:36:08 Richard Seltzer: Paul and Ruby -- if you experience is primarily with sosftware developer communities, are any of the lessons you have learned from that community development applicable to profit-making businesses and non-technical users of the Internet?
15:36:13 Paul Jones: and yes there are market opportunities there
15:36:48 Paul Jones: well, the cluetrain folks have the more or less early take on web 2.0
15:36:59 Ruby Sinreich: I'm not interested in profit-making businesses, personally. My primary experiences are with nonprofits that advocate for certain causes.
15:37:17 Paul Jones: so that is one interaction between
15:37:22 Paul Jones: profit is fine by me
15:37:25 Ruby Sinreich: Ditto, Paul. http://cluetrain.com
15:37:27 Richard Seltzer: Paul and Ruby -- when you think of a "community" how many people are you talking about? less than a dozen? more than a dozen? hundreds? thousands? millions? are different capabilities important for supporting communities of radically different size?
15:37:48 Paul Jones: both can interact and benefit
15:38:02 Paul Jones: getting a darfur report in the background
15:38:09 Sayan: and they can scale up from being small to hundred...
15:38:24 Ruby Sinreich: there is no limit to how small or lareg a community can be, it depends on what its function is.
15:38:38 Ruby Sinreich: social networks usually top out around 150 and then get unweildy.
15:39:14 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- My take is a bit different. I think of a "non-profit" as basically bureaucracy driven -- starting from the bureaucratic hoops one has to jump through to satisfy government tax-related definitions of non-profit. Small operations (say one-person c
15:39:29 sujamthe: Interesting enough, the cluetrain folks were here at the older version of this chat in Feb 2000 http://www.samizdat.com/clue.html
15:39:48 Paul Jones: well tha;s one way to do it
15:40:00 Ruby Sinreich: "non-profit" is a description of an organization's tax status, but doesn't really describe what it is.
15:40:24 Paul Jones: but remember america always amazed europeans because we all volunteer so much
15:40:34 sujamthe: Paul, what are the market opportunites you see?
15:40:39 Ruby Sinreich: a nonprofit or nongovernmental organizaion is simply a collection of people who want to incorporate for an altruistic purpose instead of making money.
15:40:39 Paul Jones: and we always form and join organizations
15:40:40 Richard Seltzer: Yes, the principles of Cluetrain are basic princiiples of interaction on the Internet and good business practice on the Intenret and respecting customers and doing what you can to serve your audience. Nothing non-profit about it.
15:40:50 Paul Jones: in OSS for example
15:41:07 Paul Jones: you saw Cygnus early on interacting with GNU
15:41:25 sujamthe: I see this trend of communities evolving beyond the OSS world, and can think of market opportunities for specific businesses if they took it in the spirit of the community
15:41:34 Ruby Sinreich: I think of teh Cluetrain Manifesto as network-centric marketing.
15:41:39 Paul Jones: you see many interactions with Linux from Red Hat to Ubantu
15:41:40 Paul Jones: the last being almost a humanitarian project
15:41:54 Ruby Sinreich: Nonprofits can adapt cluetrain ideas by replacing the work "customer" with "supporter"
15:41:57 Paul Jones: marketing is message communitcation
15:42:07 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- the key word there is "incorporate". Small companies don't need to do that, don't need to tie themselves up that way. (Sorry. Personal prejudice of mine. I see too many traditioanl non-profits wasting lots of time and energy raising money, when
15:42:16 Ruby Sinreich: sorry, the wor_D_
15:42:21 Paul Jones: IBM interacting with Apache is another example
15:42:43 Ruby Sinreich: i don't see what incorporating has to do with it. some communities do, some don't.
15:43:04 Ruby Sinreich: BTW Richard, your posts are getting cut off after 2 lines.
15:43:13 Brian Russell: Nice chatting with ya'll. I need to go back to work.
15:43:17 Brian Russell: :)
15:43:26 sujamthe: incorporation is more for legal protection where money is involved.
15:43:30 Paul Jones: i agree incorporating is one way to deal with problems and challenges
15:43:35 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- thanks for letting me know about the cut offs.
15:43:36 Paul Jones: yes
15:43:54 Richard Seltzer: I see all of what I type here on the "host" page I'm using and didn't know others didn't.
15:43:57 sujamthe: Thanks for coming Brian, you can come back and read the transcripts, Richard will edit so we can read diff threads of discussions.
15:44:02 Paul Jones: but one can still make $$$ unincorporated as many third world economies prove
15:44:09 Richard Seltzer: Of course, my greatest insights appear on line 3 :-)
15:44:10 Paul Jones: and BTW underground economies
15:44:17 Ruby Sinreich: :-)
15:44:50 Paul Jones: can we post images here? (big sandstrom in khartoom
15:45:05 Richard Seltzer: I'm still a bit fuzzy on the word "community"
15:45:25 sujamthe: no images, send a url for it
15:45:32 Paul Jones: that's because you want a solid def of a negotiated meaning
15:45:41 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- No. We can't post images here. But give me a URL and I'll include a link (or even the phicture) in the transcript.
15:45:45 Paul Jones: not online so later if appropriate
15:46:01 Paul Jones: the perils of multitasking
15:46:09 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- you could email at photo at seltzer@samizdat.com
15:46:36 sujamthe: I am trying to get to some key understanding of whats changed now to cause these communities to form?
15:46:39 Richard Seltzer: I sense that there many different degrees of community interaction.
15:47:03 Richard Seltzer: Basic is letting people ask questions and posting their questiosn and your answers on your Web page.
15:47:14 Richard Seltzer: The automated form of that basic interaction is a blog.
15:47:35 Sayan: suja.. i think the tools to interact within and outside the community have become available, easy to use and usually free
15:47:35 Richard Seltzer: Next is a chat or forum, when more than two people interact on the same subject.
15:47:36 Paul Jones: ibiblio isn''t limitied to commiunities thos
15:47:49 sujamthe: I've been part of Bostobn Computer Society and know people can volunteer passionately and do wonderful work. But creating something thats sustains itself, doesn't it require a company? whats the variable that makes these communities survive and perform
15:47:50 Paul Jones: passionate individuals also have projects
15:48:02 Richard Seltzer: Next is a series of interactions -- the same set of people returning with some regularity to talk about the same subject.
15:48:11 Paul Jones: for example 10 years ago Roger McGuinn started putting
15:48:20 sujamthe: Thanks sayan, you mean, I can setup a wiki and allow a community to build?
15:48:37 sujamthe: I have an example of a successful community gethuman.com
15:48:37 Richard Seltzer: Next is goal-oriented continuing discussion -- where the people involved are actually coming to a decision and will take action of some kind together.
15:48:51 Paul Jones: a different folksong on the net every month
15:49:06 Paul Jones: now he has over 100 songs
15:49:19 Richard Seltzer: Next is something like "continuous devleopment: or "continuous improvement" as with open-ended, growing software and political projects.
15:49:22 Sayan: suja.. if u already have friends as seed members of a community , instead of writing individual mails... u can start contributing to a blog/wiki
15:49:29 Paul Jones: and he sells CDs and sells out concerts
15:49:31 sujamthe: my friend paul english started a cheatsheet to get to the operator in 800 numbers and its evolved into a community volunteer driven and maintains the list.
15:49:54 Jeff Smith: Suja, that gethuman.com ?
15:49:56 Paul Jones: yes on community. the tech only facilitates the people
15:49:59 sujamthe: It appears motivation is access to those short-cuts, but theres something more.
15:50:11 Richard Seltzer: Su -- Can you give a quick definition of a wiki and how that relates to "communityh"?
15:50:15 Paul Jones: imagine a blank craig's list!
15:50:21 sujamthe: Do you see anything else common ora driving factor forming these communities?
15:50:31 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- in what sense is ibiblio related to "wiki" style development?
15:50:35 Paul Jones: passion
15:50:49 Paul Jones: passion as an answer to su
15:51:04 Richard Seltzer: It's possible that a more concrete definition of social community would focus on the software it is built around.
15:51:10 Paul Jones: now to richard. wiki is a specific tech
15:51:18 sujamthe: wiki is a tool like a blog, but allows users to come edit a web site.
15:51:38 Richard Seltzer: I'm thinking forum/chat, blog, etc. And maybe "wiki" now (if I had a clearer idea of what that meant).
15:51:45 Paul Jones: wikis are on ibiblio but they really do require an active core of people to keep alive
15:51:48 sujamthe: passion for a cause thats the initial goal of the community?
15:52:16 Paul Jones: not a goal but a driver to the goal
15:52:22 Sayan: yes
15:52:22 sujamthe: Richard you know wikipedia, wiki tools are available for people to allow others to write.
15:52:23 Richard Seltzer: What' makes a "wiki" work? What makes it grow to a community?
15:52:37 Paul Jones: if you wanted to create a community of folks interested in cream of wheat
15:52:55 Paul Jones: and no one cared enough to post or work on the site etc
15:53:01 Paul Jones: then you get zip
15:53:01 sujamthe: Many user groups have wikis to allow members to post their bio and if they'd attend a meeting, remember the Boston Innovation Group wiki?
15:53:08 Richard Seltzer: I understand that wikipedia grew up around the 1911 edition of the Encyclopedia Britiannica, with volunteers adding to that, and then refining one anothers contributions.
15:53:09 Paul Jones: you may have all the goals you want
15:53:32 Paul Jones: if people if only a few if only you say are passionate about cream of wheat
15:53:39 Richard Seltzer: Do you need a large and useful document, and a group of people who really care about that document, to built a wiki community?
15:53:49 Paul Jones: passionalte enough to work and contribute and build
15:54:01 Paul Jones: you may attract others who share that passion
15:54:10 sujamthe: Paul, good point. Thats where many companies who adopted chat and forum failed as they couldn't build community.
15:54:27 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- I understand the need for passion. But don't you also need core document to begin with?
15:54:34 sujamthe: Even today most think of community as the people already on their site.
15:54:36 Paul Jones: not really.
15:54:40 Ruby Sinreich: Richardm i don't think you need a docuemnt. Just people who have passion and knowledge or ideas.
15:54:46 sujamthe: Paul, a pratical question -
15:54:55 Richard Seltzer: Don't you need a seed? (and isn't a large useful text the most natural seed?)
15:54:59 Jeff Smith: Depending on the commerciallness of the topic of your wiki or the topics covered in your wiki you need more moderating.
15:55:00 Paul Jones: as jenny preece says in her Online Communities book:
15:55:08 Ruby Sinreich: No, just a topic.
15:55:21 Paul Jones: you need people (i'd say passionate people), purpose, and policy
15:55:37 Jeff Smith: "Just people who have passion and knowledge or ideas." Aggree
15:55:39 Jeff Smith: Agree
15:55:40 Sayan: topic and a willingness to build up from scratch if need be
15:55:41 Ruby Sinreich: Rivhard, it seems you are assuming users are only re-active, they can also be pro-active.
15:55:51 Richard Seltzer: Jeff -- I'd think that a core document and wiki style adding and editing might accomplish your goals.
15:55:58 Paul Jones: that helps a lot but sometimes it will develop in the interactions
15:56:04 sujamthe: Richard and I have been organizing this chat since 1996, I am more involved now in this blogchat format. We have a loyal base of users who are on our mailing list, some come if it suits their timing to the chat, many come and read the transcripts -
15:56:10 Paul Jones: if you are looking for a wiki cookbook
15:56:20 sujamthe: Richard religiously edits so the threads are readable.
15:56:22 Paul Jones: then youcan say that
15:56:38 Paul Jones: thank gawd for richard!
15:56:40 sujamthe: For some topics, people email ahead of time with comments if they can't make it.
15:56:43 Richard Seltzer: Ruby -- No. I imagine a wiki community consisting of many very interested and active people. it's just easier for me to imagine them sticking together and working together is there's a core document.
15:56:45 Paul Jones: typing is not writing
15:56:52 Paul Jones: speaking is not writing
15:57:05 Jeff Smith: I think for starters you need a goal with a Wiki. If you define a goal then the users can help shape the wiki to meet that goal.
15:57:14 Paul Jones: this highly interactive commnuication is good in this form but
15:57:23 Jeff Smith: IE to have the largest recipe database online.
15:57:25 Jeff Smith: ,et c
15:57:27 Paul Jones: reading it later it's hard ot make sense
15:57:44 Sayan: some wikis start off with just a blank structure,,, which people fill in the gaps and add content
15:57:55 sujamthe: Paul, now, is this a community? Is it possible to make it a wiki or some other tool based system to let a community drive its goals. Currently Richard and I set the goals on learning web trends and evolvng b-models, can this be a self-driving community?
15:57:57 Paul Jones: right jeff. purpose, policy, people
15:58:08 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- Okay. This will be a challenge, to reconstitute the threads of this discussion in readable from. But that's what we always do.
15:58:23 sujamthe: Whats the formula to make it happen? More to decide if it fits the participatory community model?
15:58:28 Richard Seltzer: I only hope I can do it well this time, because the discussion has been very intersting.
15:59:08 Paul Jones: how to describe a commnuity model is a lot like describing the ideal government
15:59:17 Paul Jones: it varies by culture
15:59:23 Richard Seltzer: I guess what I'm looking for is a model for building a useful and productie community. I suspect wiki based, and with a core document.
15:59:37 Paul Jones: but preece's 3 ps are fairly useful
15:59:44 Richard Seltzer: Paul -- and many people have tried to describe the ideal govenment...
16:00:02 Paul Jones: plato is the worst
16:00:19 Paul Jones: no one has it perfect but they keep tuning
16:00:36 Richard Seltzer: In any case, we're at the end of the hour. Thanks to all. Please post your email addresses and URL so we can stay in touch.
16:00:47 Paul Jones: i suspect we're not done getting government right
16:00:50 Paul Jones: ;->
16:00:52 Richard Seltzer: Thanks very much Paul in particular, as our guest speaker.
16:01:03 Ruby Sinreich: Thanks Richard & Su for putting this together.
16:01:04 Paul Jones: hope you can read my typing
16:01:11 Richard Seltzer: Please let us know if you have topics and speakers you'd like to suggest for future sessions.
16:01:14 Paul Jones: thanks for inviting me. it's been fun
16:01:20 Paul Jones: will do
16:01:24 Jeff Smith: Thanks everyone
16:01:27 sujamthe: Thanks everybody. Thanks Paul
16:01:30 Paul Jones: sorry to miss su in cambridge
16:01:32 Sayan: this was very interesting and fun ! thanks !
16:01:38 Richard Seltzer: Thanks to all. Do please post contact info before leaving.
16:01:44 sujamthe: Paul, pl tell people about your conference topic and time at harvard
16:01:57 Paul Jones: http://ibiblio.org/pjones/blog
16:01:59 Jeff Smith: Jeff Smith jsmith@matrixmt.com
16:02:02 sujamthe: I am so soooooooory I'l miss it :-(
16:02:09 Ruby Sinreich: You can find me at http://lotusmedia.org. there are links there to my other things.
16:02:14 Sayan: Sayan Chakraborty c.sayan@gmail.com www.sayanc.net
16:02:16 Richard Seltzer: Richard Seltzer seltzer@samizdat.com http://www.samizdat.com
16:02:18 Paul Jones: beyond broadcast http://beyondbroadcast.net
16:02:32 Richard Seltzer: Thanks again.
16:02:39 Paul Jones: friday and saturday at the berkman center at harvard law
16:02:56 Paul Jones: paul jones <jones@unc.edu>
16:03:02 Ruby Sinreich: Bye y'all.
16:03:16 Paul Jones: sea ewe l8r
16:04:01 Sayan: Bye !
16:04:18 sujamthe: Pal, say hi to Bill Gannon, and tell him about this chat, I've xchanged emails with him and would like to invite him here sometime in future.
16:04:32 sujamthe: Bye everybody

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